A sincere question for Catholics

Kathryn,

You and I both agree that the antichrist will deny the Divinity of Jesus Christ. He will be in fact against Christ.

On the other hand, when it comes to the antichrist he will not at first act like the antichrist but will in fact get other people to believe that he is Jesus Christ. This is why during the era that many Israelites will accept him as being their Messiah; because he will become a Christ figure to them. Notice, the False Prophet of Rev. 13:12 will instruct people to 'worship the first beast/antichrist.' God will allow Satan to allow the antichrist to even bring fire down out of Heaven. [Rev. 13:13] Quite impressive phenomenon. And again in Rev. 13:15 the antichrist will demand worship and adoration. In his desire for power he will claim that he is Christ by sitting in the {Jewish} future Great Tribulation Temple as duly noted in II Thess. 2:4. The Apostle Paul says that this antichrist will ' . . . exhalt himself ABOVE all that is called God.' This monster will think that he is even greater than Divinity.

At about 3 1/2 years into the Great Tribulation he will, because of his power, turn against the False Prophet {the apostate and watered-down church} and will turn into the monster that Satan has planned for him.

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Who is the liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is the
antichrist, [even] he that denieth the Father and the Son ." 1 John 2:22


"..and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is
the [spirit] of the antichrist , whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and
now it is in the world already." 1 John 4:3


"For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, [even] they that
confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver
and the antichrist." 2 John 1:7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is the word of God - it stands forever.

Read carefully the context of the quotes above - it does not say "for TODAY Antichrist appear in the form of those that deny Christ". There is no limit.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is my point. The anti-Christ described in Revelation will deny the divinity of Jesus Christ just as the anti-Christ described in 1 and 2 John. Ray said it applied in the past, but not the future. The word of God stands forever. The spirit of the anti-Christ will not change.... whoever it is will deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.

God Bless

 

Ray:

Well that would leave out every Pope, since they all teach Jesus Christ Himself is Lord, God, and Redeemer. This would be a dead give away for any Pope to teach Jesus Christ is not the Lord God. No one says, Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit according to Scripture. Even a wolf is sheep’s clothing can not say Jesus is Lord and then later say that they are Jesus Christ. This would be deception and this is what scripture says is the test…..they can not say Jesus is Lord because this comes from the Holy Spirit. This is promised by Holy Scripture. Any wolf in sheeps clothing would be a dead give away to a Catholic because we believe Jesus Christ comes in Glory to judge the living and the dead (all the elect and all those who will be damned) and the wedding feast of the lamb begins.

Any man, even a miracle worker, that claims to be Jesus Christ and doesn’t come in glory to judge the living and the dead is not going to have the backing of the Catholics. His only followers would be those who are into a literal thousand year reign on earth after Jesus comes which is very recent belief. You guys can belief it if you chose, but Catholics won’t have any trouble recognizing the real Jesus Christ who comes in Glory, from a wolf in sheeps clothing who sticks around saying He is Jesus Christ, fooling those who chose to believe him.

The kingdom of God is at hand….. this is the end times…the supper of the lamb is here, and Jesus Christ Himself will come for the resurrection of the body and the final judgement and the wedding feast to come.

Do I want to pursue the Whore of Babylon and the Anti-Christ, not really because all of Holy Scripture teaches me how to recognize the deceivers, and teaches who the Bride of Christ is, and how to prepare myself, and how to recognize His Church. The Apocolypse is there for me to strengthen my faith under persecution which is now, not to become a guessing game of who’s who in the future. Anyone who denies the divinity of Jesus Christ is not to be trusted…that is a given straight from the Bible. I am not going to be around following after someone who says he is Jesus Christ, because the real Jesus Christ comes in Glory to judge the living and the dead, and no one will have any doubt about meeting God face to face.

Thank you Ray for your gentlemanly attitude. I actually have enjoyed the discussion. I am not motivated to pursue left behind discussions because it doesn't involve me. I will recognize Jesus Christ when He comes in Glory and no one else. Feel free to respond if you chose, but I am going on vacation for a few days. I look forward to many more discussions with you.

God Bless

 

Kelly:

No one is writing off the book of Revelation as mere poetry. These seem to be your thoughts not mine. Every word is the word of God and an extension of the gospels as the word of God and an extension of Daniel. There is no need to ignore the bride and search instead for the Whore.

The Bride of Christ is His Church.

But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days. Mark 2:20 This is now.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Who is speaking of the lost? It is non-Catholic Christians not the lost who search for the Whore of Babylon rather than the bride of Christ. I am speaking of the Christians who don’t recognize the body of Christ in the Eucharist, but search for the Whore of Babylon in the Bride of Christ. They miss the supper of the lamb, and search instead for the Whore.

The Bible says His Church is the Pillar and foundation of truth, not the thousands and thousands of denominations and Christians all declaring that they know the truth and disagreeing and arguing with each other. Every year there are thousands more denominations each having a different slant on something to justify a new church.

Vatican is a separate country. It is not part of Rome. And it is not on seven hills, but pagan Rome was. Vatican City is actually very small and has no desire or army to take over any other hills.

Interesting. Where was that? In Ireland? When was that song referring to?

There have been many more martyrs since then, not even counting the missionaries from all over the world who have given their lives:


 Catholic Martyrs of the Holocaust
 Blessed Teresa Bracco (1924-1944) -- Italian Citizen (Santa Giulia).
 Blessed Titus Brandsma (1881-1942) -- Carmelite priest (Dachau).
 Blessed Marcel Callo (1921-1945) -- Jocist layman (Mathausen).
 Blessed Jozef Cebula(1902-1941) -- Oblate priest (Mathausen)
 Blessed Stefan Wicenty Frelichowski (1913-1945) -- Polish pastor (Dachau)
 Blessed Jakob Gapp (1897-1943) -- Marianist priest (Ploetzensee).
 Blessed Nikolaus Gross (1898-1945) -- Lay editor (Ploetzensee).
 Blessed Jozef Jankowski (1910-1941) -- Pallotine priest (Auschwitz)
 Blessed Hilary Januszewski (1907-1945) -- Carmelite priest (Dachau)
 Blessed Helene Kafka (1894-1943) -- Franciscan nun (Vienna).
 Saint Maximilian Kolbe (1894-1941) -- Franciscan priest (Auschwitz).
 Blessed Michal Kozal (1893-1943) -- Polish bishop (Dachau).
 Blessed Karl Leisner (1915-1945) -- German priest (Dachau).
 Blessed Bernhard Lichtenberg (1875-1943) -- German monsignor (Dachau).
 Blessed Alphonsus Mary Mazurek (1891-1944) -- Polish Carmelite (Nawojowa Gora)
 Blessed Otto Neururer (1882-1940) -- Austrian priest (Buchenwald).
 Blessed Anastazy Jakub Pankiewicz (1882-1942) -- Franciscan priest (Dachau)
 Blessed Julia Rodzinska (1899-1944) -- Dominican nun (Stutthof)
 Blessed Jozef Stanek (1916-1944) -- Pallotine priest (Warsaw)
 Blessed Boleslaw Strzelecki (1896-1941) -- priest of Radom (Auschwitz)
 Saint Edith Stein (1891-1942) -- Carmelite nun (Auschwitz). On the same day of her death, August 9, 1942, there also perished at Auschwitz Rosa Stein (1883-1942), her sister, and six members of the Loeb Family all Trappists (three nuns, two priests, and one brother).
 108 Polish Martyrs of World War II (1939-1945): Among them were Anton Julian Nowowiejski (1858-1941), an aged archbishop who died in the German death camp at Dzialdowo, where he refused to step on a crucifix; Henryk Kaczorowski (1888-1942), seminary rector at Wloclawek; Ewa Noiszewka (1885-1942) and Marta Wolowska (1879-1942), two Sisters of the Immaculate Conception who were executed at Gora Pietrelewicka in Slonim for hiding Jewish childlren; and Maria Anna Biernacka (1888-1943), one of nine lay persons (she was a benefactress of the Redemptorists in Warsaw) who chose to be executed (she was shot on 13 July 1943 near Grodno) to save her unborn grand child. These were beatified along with George Kaszyra (1904-1943) and Anthony Leszczewicz (1890-1943), Marian priests, (they perished among some 1,500 victims burned alive by the Nazis in Roscia, Belarus, on 17-18 February 1943), whose causes had been opened, on 26 January 1992 in Poland. On June 13, 1999,Pope John Paul II beatified them (including two other bishops, Wladyslaw Goral (1898-1945) and Leon Wetmanski (1886-1941) and many priests, like Jozef Pawlowski (1890-1942) in Kielce and Zygmunt Pisarski (1902-1943) in Lublin, who risked his life to help Jews; and religious, among them Capuchins like Anciet Koplinski (1875-1941); Franciscans like Bruno Zembol (1905-1942), and Salesians like Jozef Kowalski (1911-1942), who died at Auschwitz, not to mention nuns like Maria Antonina Kratochwil (1881-1942), a member of the School Sisters of Notre Dame (she helped Jewish girls in prison), and Maria Klemensa Staszewska (1890-1943), executed at Auschwitz because she hid Jewish girls in a convent. While fifteen of those victims were martyred at Auschwitz and forty-three at Dachau, among the others beatified were also five young Catholic men, The Martyrs of Poznan, who were associated with the Salesians were beheaded at Dresden for their part in resistance activities: Czeslaw Jozwiak (1919-1942), Edward Kazmierski (1919-1942), Edward Klinik (1919-1942), Franciszek Kesy (1920-1942), and Jarogniew Wojciechowski (1922-1942). Although at least eighty Polish Jesuits were martyred by the Nazis, none was included among the thirty-three religious beatified that day. However, it is expected that they will be included in a special ceremony at a future date when the preparation of their causes is concluded.
 Emilian Kovtch (1884-1944), a priest from the Ukrainian Eparchy of Stanislaviv (Ivano-Frankivsk) who died in ovens of Majdanek (Poland) concentration camp, as a victim of the Nazis in 1944, is scheduled for beatification in Pope John Paul II's trip to the Ukraine in June 2001.


God Bless

P.S.
I am finished with this thread, feel free to respond in anyway you see fit. I will be gone for a little while, and this thread is getting too long.

 

Kathryn,

You are absolutely correct; people like you and me will recognize Him at His coming.

I was referring to Israelites and millions of other people who will be fooled by his acting out the part of Christ. He will require people's worship and adoration. [Rev. 13:12,15] O.T. rabbis of old knew of the future coming of the Messiah and perhaps due to the abundant knowledge in our world, many Jews especially are going to welcome this political leader, the antichrist, as indeed being their Messiah/Christ. Christians like us would recognize that antichrist will be, as you said, a wolf in sheep's clothing. But, then according to Biblical prophecy we will meet Him in the clouds, to be with Jesus forevermore. [I Thess. 4:17]

Enjoy your vacation.

 

Let's start with the head Cardinal:

See link to Papal Address of Sept. 9, 1998:

Salvation for those who do not recognize or acknowledge Christ "Who suffered for our salvation" as their Savior? Is this the Catholic faith of the Athananian Creed "which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved"?

At the 2002 Papally sponsored Assisi interfaith conference, pagan clerics were invited to worship at the Sacred Convent of St. Francis, a site dedicated to the sole worship of the Triune God. Idols were set up in order offer sacrifices to their false deities. Here is how the rooms were arranged:

Room A Islam
Room B Buddhism
Room C Sikhismo
Room D Traditional African Religions
Room E Hinduism
Room F Tenriko
Room G Shintoism
Room H Judaism
Room I Zoroastrianism, Jainism and Confucianism

The Vatican is so proud of the event that pictures of the idols are available at their website. What ever happened to "Thou shalt have no other gods before my face"?

There is at least one Cardinal who treasures the Catholic faith above obedience to the Pope. Cardinal Giacomo Biffi was so disgusted he refused to attend. Guess who won't be the next Pope!

[ June 28, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

My mistake. I appologize.

In Christ,

Bob

 

All those idols - and no indulgences?

I must say - the RCC is going down a strange path lately.

In Christ,

Bob

 

'The spirit of the anti-Christ will not change....'

Ray is saying 'Yes, this is true tht the spirit of antichrist will not change, but the tactics of Satan relative to this man will cause this monster to become versatile in his approach to humankind.

Christ is Divine. And the antichrist will not be satisfied that Jesus is Divine; 'this man of sin, this son of perdition' [II Thess. 2:3d] will also claim Divinity [II Thess. 2:4d {'showing himself that he is God, not the Devil personified}]and will demand worship. [Rev. 13:4b; 13:12b; 13:15c] After all, worship presupposes a Divine Being. The antichrist will claim to be the promised Jewish Messiah, promised by the O.T. prophets. For 3 1/2 years antichrist will appeal to human beings in this way, demanding worship; the last 3 1/2 years he will demand that all earth beings take the 'mark of the beast.' [Rev. 13:16-18]

To win the worlds adulation he will be the promised Prince, the Messiah of Israel, but in the latter 3 1/2 years he will be an unconscionble, world monster who will be set on fire, if you will, by Hell itself and the 'god of this world' namely Satan himself.

 

Here is the linkidol worship at assisi) Check out photo 5.

There are many Roman Catholics who are disgusted by all this and wish to remain faithful to Catholic doctrine. See link to (The Daily Catholic).

[ June 29, 2003, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

See link(Jews don't need Jesus). According to Cardinal Kasper:

"This does not mean that Jews in order to be saved have to become Christians; if they follow their own conscience and believe in God's promises as they understand them in their religious tradition, they are in line with God's plan, which for us comes to historical completion in Jesus Christ," he said.

Apparently, the Roman church doesn't need the Athanasian Creed anymore either.

 

John Gilmore,

If Cardinal Kasper is not saved he will face the Messiah, Jesus and be saying the words of Matthew 7:22b. 'Lord, Lord, have I not preached in Thy Name . . . . and in Thy name done many wonderful works?' And Jesus will say, 'I never knew you; depart from Me . . . '

How can any saved person believe that Jewish people don't need the Lord Jesus in order to be saved? I thought John 14:6 and I Timothy 2:5 was the truth. Maybe I should follow still another of the finite, traditions of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

A person that does not regard faith as necessary has already lost Christ. False teachers are saved if they retain the foundation, true knowledge of Christ and faith (1 Cor 3:11). But, what the Vatican and the liberal Protestent leadership teach, destroys the very foundation.

Fortunately, Christ gives to every true Catholic and true Christian the right to judge doctrine when He says, "My sheep hear My voice." Within many Roman Catholic and liberal Protestant churches, there is a grassroot movement to restore the Catholic faith of the Athanasian Creed.

[ June 30, 2003, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

Ray:

Anyone can be saved just through his conscience and via moral law except
Protestants......(They're the ones who deny the Holy Catholic Church and that's
a No No)

Didn't ya know that ?