Tongues

1Cor.12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.
--Charity was a more excellent way. It was better than all the spiritual gifts put together. Paul spends the first seven verse of chapter 13 elaborating on it. He does say in 12:31 to desire the "best gifts." But tongues wasn't among them. It was the least important of all the gifts. Look and see:

12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
--Here the gifts are set in order of descending importance. Firstly, Secondarily, Thirdly, and after that, etc. The very last gift in the list is tongues--the least important of all. Paul commands to desire the best gifts not the least gifts. Don't seek after tongues; seek the more beneficial gifts: teaching, helps, etc.

Yes, that is correct. "Charity never fails" (vs.8). The greatest of these is charity (vs.13). Charity would abide forever. Nothing else would. All others at some point in time would cease. Even faith and hope would cease. That is why charity was greater than faith and hope. But the gifts that Paul listed, especially in 13:8 (and I believe also in 12:28) would cease by the time the canon of Scripture had been completed, that is, by the end of the first century.

The church needed spiritual gifts because the Word of God was not complete. They needed special revelation of God. We don't. We have the complete manual in the completed Word of God. Even the very word "perfect" means "complete". It is an Old English word that has the meaning of complete. It is that way in the Greek as well. When the Word of God was complete there would be no more need for these temporary (in part) special, spiritual gifts. It was after the ascension but before the Bible was completed. The Bible was not completed until about 98 A.D. with the completion of the Book of Revelation by the Apostle John. This book (Corinthians) was written in the early 60's.

There is no way that this verse could refer to Christ. A neuter pronoun "that" cannot refer to Jesus Christ. Only a masculine pronoun can do that. "That" which is to come, must refer to something else besides Jesus. The best alternative that fits the context here is the Word of God. The gifts remained in force until the Word of God was complete, not until there was an official canonization by the Catholic Church. I disagree with their view of canonization anyway.

What exactly you received I don't know what it was. I just know that it wasn't the same thing that the Apostles had and the early church had.
DHK

 

Singer,

I asked this question back on page 3 and still have not gotten an answer. We have started another thread Called Asking for the Holy Ghost??? Please come there and share any scriptural evidence that you have that says we must seek the baptism of the Spirit. Thanks.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=001488

~Lorelei

 

Why are basing all these conclusions on one experience. You have just demonstrated that your theology arises out of your experience, and not vice-versa. If we have an experience that is well and good. But the experience must be checked by the Word of God. That is our foundation. If the experience goes contrary to the Word of God, then it is not of God, whether a person thinks it is an answer to prayer or not.

You spoke in touges. You admit it wasn't a gift, but it was your experience. You claim you were edified by it. You also claim that it was an answer to prayer. We get many things that we ask for, but does that make them answer to prayers. If someone is depressed and prays: "O Lord if it be thy will when I cross this busy intersection illegally let me get hit by a car and die." If that happens to the person, does that mean that God answered the prayer, or that the person was foolish, and would have died anyway had she prayed anyway. If she had prayed a similar prayer and jumped of a sky scraper, would it have made a difference. Would it have been an answer to prayer. What happens if I pray: "Lord be sure to wake me up in the morning." Is it an answer to prayer that I wake up in the morning, or does that happen every morning? Just because we "get" what we pray for, doesn't always make it an answer to pray. There may be another cause for it. I don't mean to sound skeptical about prayer. I believe in prayer. But too many people are also very flippant about prayer. Was your experience with tongues really an answer to prayer, or were you deceived in just thinking it was? How do you know? Everything must be measured by the Word of God.

"1. Do not pray in the confines of your own home."
--What has that got to do with your experience of speaking in tongues? Nothing. Your conclusion here in non sequitor. It has nothing to do with tongues.

"2. Do not seek God with all your heart and mind."
Again, nothing to do with any tongues experience.

"3. Do not read your Bible diligently."
--Same. Nothing to do with tongues.

"4. Do not pray after a spiritual arousing Bible study."
--Nothing to do with tongues.

"5. Do not expect answers from God."
--Nothing to do with tongues.

"6. Do not raise your hands in praise to God."
--Nothing to do with tongues.

"7. Do not seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit."
On this, we are not to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. No where in Scripture are we commanded to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Can you point to one Scripture where it says that we are to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It just isn't there. You should stick to this one.
DHK

 

Singer,

No, it offered no scripture that tells me I must seek the Holy Spirit Baptism. Are there any that suggest that I must or is that something you just choose to believe even though the Bible never teaches it?

~Lorelei

 

Somehow I just knew Singer was not going to answer my question about Phillip and the apostles....

I'm somewhat disappointed, however, that none of the other tongues-speakers attempted.

And I guess we hurt Victory's feelings...he/she hasn't been back in days.

 

Singer--you still don't see the significance, do you?

There's no account of the eunuch speaking in tongues. There's no account of the jailer in Acts 16 speaking in tongues.

There are multiple accounts of speaking in tongues in order to act as a sign for the witnesses present.

In other words, speaking in tongues has a purpose. The only time someone should be speaking in tongues is when there's a reason for it.

And that reason is exactly what Paul tells us tongues are for: A sign.

Re-read the accounts for yourself and see. In every instance, you'll find that when it's discussed that they did wondrous things (speaking in tongues, for instance) after being saved, it was for a purpose--it was a sign to someone witnessing the event.

There are NOT two different versions of "speaking in tongues." Scripture does not bear this out, as I've already discussed. Paul does not make any distinction between a gift of tongues and speaking in tongues.

Tongues are for a sign, plain and simple. Now, we can argue the semantics of 1 Corinthians 14 till we both fall over dead. I'd suggest you get a good verse-by-verse commentary, such as the King James Bible Commentary by E.Dobson and others, and search it out for yourself some more.

The fact of the matter is, Paul said "I thank God I speak in tongues more than ye all, YET in the church, I had rather speak five words with understanding"; and "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

If you're a believer, then you don't need a sign.

And not everyone is required to seek out speaking in tongues; Paul makes this clear when he says "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation."

He finally makes fully clear his main point of chapter 14 in this statement: "Let all things be done unto edifying."

And he already said, a few verses previous: "Seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church."

Not "in church," but "the church," which, as we all know, is the body of Christ.

Folks, I'm moving next week. I've got a lot of stuff to take care of over the next few days, and my internet is getting cut off Monday. I humbly ask that everyone pray over this matter of speaking in tongues, and may God Bless you all. I'll be back when I get some place where I have internet access.

 

Singer, this was covered already in this thread. Since they believed what? Not the gospel, they had only known John's baptism, there is no indication they knew anything of Jesus' death, burial and ressurection. When it says he met certain disciples, we can deduce from the text that he most likely meant disciples of John. These fellows had obviously not heard all the wonderful events that had happened since, or realized that Jesus was the one in whom John was preaching.

Here is my post from back at page 6.

There was also another post in which I clarified this. So this is obviously not speaking to receiving the Spirit after you believe the gospel, but after you believe John the Baptist, for there was much more to salvation than what John Preached. Even John tells you he was only there to point to the one who was to come after him.

~Lorelei

 

Here is a much misunderstood topic which some have taken to an extreme, in that it has become almost heretical. A Christian does not live by blind faith. When you consider marriage do you put on a blind-fold, walk into a room full of ladies, spin your self around, and blindly pick the one that your finger ends up pointing to? Or, is your choice of a wife based on much prayer, advice of parents and friends and godly individuals such as a pastor? Is it based on the confidence you have in the girl you are about to marry that she is the right one for you, based on her character, and what you already know about her, or did you just "blindly" choose her? Was your faith in her based on some intellectual choices or was it simply blind? I hope you used some common sense (if you are married), and gave some real thought into what you were doing, and did not act blindly.

Christianity is the same way. It does not act blindly. I was not a Christian before I was saved. (That's a profound statement.) What led me to Christianity? First, a conviction that the Bible was the Word of God. Secondly, I was convinced of the reality of the resurrection of Jesus Christ as an historical event. Having been convinced of that it is not too difficult to believe that Christ is who he says he is--God. Christ testifies of the Scriptures--that they are the Word of God. I put my faith in the promises of Christ, the promises of His Word, that they are true, and will not fail. My faih is not blind. In reality it is based on the resurrection of Christ, the cornerstone of all Christianity.

Compare that to Islam and Hinduism. The average Muslim knows little if nothing about his own Koran. He blindly follows whatever his mulvi (Muslim priest) teaches him--right or wrong. That is blind faith. (Some Catholics do the same thing). The Hindu bathes in the Ganges river blindly believing that in doing so his sins will be washed away, and he will come out of that water a more holy person. What is the basis of his belief? There is none. It is a blind belief. He has blind faith. That is in total contrast to the Christian.

1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

You might read the word "confidence" as faith. I have faith or confidence in God that if I ask anything according to his will he hears me.
This is not blind faith. This is asking according the will of God. First I must ask according to the will of God, and first, I must discern what the will of God is for my life.

James 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
--You ask and receive not because ye ask amiss.

In the same chapter James says:

13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
--"If the Lord will" is the key phrase here. Always know what is the Lord's will. The Lord's will is found through prayerful study of the Word of God.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The more I hear God's Word, the more faith I will have. Christianity is a relationship, not a religion. The more I talk to God, and allow God to talk to me through His Word, the more confidence (faith) I will be able to put in Him and in His promises.

Abraham was a man of faith. He had a close walk with God. See what the Scriptures say about him:

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
--"not weak in faith," "staggered not at the promises of God," "strong in faith," "being fully persuaded,"
These expressions all describe Abraham's faith. It was not a blind faith. It was based on the promises of God.
DHK

[ February 22, 2003, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

But we have been told about Him through His creation, through His Word, through His Son and for those of us who have been saved, through His Spirit.

It isn't blind faith, I believe it because the Bible tells me it's true. The Bible has never been proven to be in error so I have no reason to doubt those promises.

Only a fool would expect God to hear Him for no reason. We know that God can and does answer our prayers if they are in accordance with His Will because he Tells us that He will in God's Word.

All the prophecies have been fulfilled, no one has ever proven it wrong, that isn't blind faith.

Proof comes from Him in whom we have faith in, not faith in and of itself, that is useless. Proof is always substantiated and upheld in His Word, never outside of it.

It depends on what the Bible says about it.

But not necessarily from God.

You better make certain that it is supported in scripture. You can be blind alright, you can be blinded as to what your faith is really in. No experience will contradict the Word of God. No prayer, no matter how long, and no faith, no matter how strong, can cause God to go against His own Word.


~Lorelei

 

Singer,
Do you have faith in your "faith"? Or do you have faith in the promises of the Word of God?

 

See my post on page 3.

~Lorelei

 

Time for one more post before the internet gets cut off....

Do you really suppose that old trickster isn't tricky enough?

Of course; that's why DHK, Lorelei, and BriGuy do so much bible study, testing the spirits, and testing everything you've provided against scripture!