Tongues

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:

If charity is for all time and the rest of the gifts are not,
why does vs 14:1 say to follow charity and desire spiritual gifts ?

1Cor.12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.
--Charity was a more excellent way. It was better than all the spiritual gifts put together. Paul spends the first seven verse of chapter 13 elaborating on it. He does say in 12:31 to desire the "best gifts." But tongues wasn't among them. It was the least important of all the gifts. Look and see:

12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
--Here the gifts are set in order of descending importance. Firstly, Secondarily, Thirdly, and after that, etc. The very last gift in the list is tongues--the least important of all. Paul commands to desire the best gifts not the least gifts. Don't seek after tongues; seek the more beneficial gifts: teaching, helps, etc.

Was the first part (follow charity) for people of all time to do,
yet the second part of the statement (desire gifts) only for the
apostles to do until the time of "that which is perfect shall come"....?

Yes, that is correct. "Charity never fails" (vs.8). The greatest of these is charity (vs.13). Charity would abide forever. Nothing else would. All others at some point in time would cease. Even faith and hope would cease. That is why charity was greater than faith and hope. But the gifts that Paul listed, especially in 13:8 (and I believe also in 12:28) would cease by the time the canon of Scripture had been completed, that is, by the end of the first century.

Wasn't this after the ascension? So it could follow then that Paul
was not referring to Jesus as the "perfect", but then why did He even
include the statement to "desire spiritual gifts" if it was a past event
(ceased at the bible writing) and not meant for anyone beyond
that time...?

The church needed spiritual gifts because the Word of God was not complete. They needed special revelation of God. We don't. We have the complete manual in the completed Word of God. Even the very word "perfect" means "complete". It is an Old English word that has the meaning of complete. It is that way in the Greek as well. When the Word of God was complete there would be no more need for these temporary (in part) special, spiritual gifts. It was after the ascension but before the Bible was completed. The Bible was not completed until about 98 A.D. with the completion of the Book of Revelation by the Apostle John. This book (Corinthians) was written in the early 60's.

Worse yet.....could the "perfect" have been Jesus and all the gifts
ceased at the ascension. (Meaning when the Holy Spirit came into
the world...which Jesus referred to as himself).
Or..did the gifts remain in force until the bible was canonized..?
Too many questions.

There is no way that this verse could refer to Christ. A neuter pronoun "that" cannot refer to Jesus Christ. Only a masculine pronoun can do that. "That" which is to come, must refer to something else besides Jesus. The best alternative that fits the context here is the Word of God. The gifts remained in force until the Word of God was complete, not until there was an official canonization by the Catholic Church. I disagree with their view of canonization anyway.

Then again, I didn't receive the gift of tongues...just the experience
(edification). An answer to prayer.

What exactly you received I don't know what it was. I just know that it wasn't the same thing that the Apostles had and the early church had.
DHK

 

[Lorelei]

Singer,

I asked this question back on page 3 and still have not gotten an answer. We have started another thread Called Asking for the Holy Ghost??? Please come there and share any scriptural evidence that you have that says we must seek the baptism of the Spirit. Thanks.

Can you show me scriptural references that tells me that I am supposed to do these things?


pray after a spiritually arousing bible study

seek the baptism of the Holy Ghost

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=001488

~Lorelei

 

[Singer]

I disagree DHK and if what I received was not from God,
then I have to, from now on, doubt God in handling my
prayer life and I would need to warn others :

1. Do not pray in the confines of your own home
2. Do not seek God with all your heart and mind
3. Do not read your bible diligently
4. Do not pray after a spiritually arousing bible study
5. Do not expect answers from God
6. Do not raise your hands in praise
7. Do not seek the baptism of the Holy Ghost

Does this answer your question too, Lorelei ?

[ February 21, 2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Singer ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:
I disagree DHK and if what I received was not from God,
then I have to, from now on be, doubt God in handling my
prayer life and I would need to warn others :

1. Do not pray in the confines of your own home
2. Do not seek God with all your heart and mind
3. Do not read your bible diligently
4. Do not pray after a spiritually arousing bible study
5. Do not expect answers from God
6. Do not raise your hands in praise
7. Do not seek the baptism of the Holy Ghost

Does this answer your question too, Lorelei ?

Why are basing all these conclusions on one experience. You have just demonstrated that your theology arises out of your experience, and not vice-versa. If we have an experience that is well and good. But the experience must be checked by the Word of God. That is our foundation. If the experience goes contrary to the Word of God, then it is not of God, whether a person thinks it is an answer to prayer or not.

Then again, I didn't receive the gift of tongues...just the experience (edification). An answer to prayer.

You spoke in touges. You admit it wasn't a gift, but it was your experience. You claim you were edified by it. You also claim that it was an answer to prayer. We get many things that we ask for, but does that make them answer to prayers. If someone is depressed and prays: "O Lord if it be thy will when I cross this busy intersection illegally let me get hit by a car and die." If that happens to the person, does that mean that God answered the prayer, or that the person was foolish, and would have died anyway had she prayed anyway. If she had prayed a similar prayer and jumped of a sky scraper, would it have made a difference. Would it have been an answer to prayer. What happens if I pray: "Lord be sure to wake me up in the morning." Is it an answer to prayer that I wake up in the morning, or does that happen every morning? Just because we "get" what we pray for, doesn't always make it an answer to pray. There may be another cause for it. I don't mean to sound skeptical about prayer. I believe in prayer. But too many people are also very flippant about prayer. Was your experience with tongues really an answer to prayer, or were you deceived in just thinking it was? How do you know? Everything must be measured by the Word of God.

"1. Do not pray in the confines of your own home."
--What has that got to do with your experience of speaking in tongues? Nothing. Your conclusion here in non sequitor. It has nothing to do with tongues.

"2. Do not seek God with all your heart and mind."
Again, nothing to do with any tongues experience.

"3. Do not read your Bible diligently."
--Same. Nothing to do with tongues.

"4. Do not pray after a spiritual arousing Bible study."
--Nothing to do with tongues.

"5. Do not expect answers from God."
--Nothing to do with tongues.

"6. Do not raise your hands in praise to God."
--Nothing to do with tongues.

"7. Do not seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit."
On this, we are not to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. No where in Scripture are we commanded to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Can you point to one Scripture where it says that we are to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It just isn't there. You should stick to this one.
DHK

 

[Lorelei]

Singer,

No, it offered no scripture that tells me I must seek the Holy Spirit Baptism. Are there any that suggest that I must or is that something you just choose to believe even though the Bible never teaches it?

~Lorelei

 

[Don]

Somehow I just knew Singer was not going to answer my question about Phillip and the apostles....

I'm somewhat disappointed, however, that none of the other tongues-speakers attempted.

And I guess we hurt Victory's feelings...he/she hasn't been back in days.

 

[Singer]

Originally posted by Don:
Well, apparently I'm not gonna get an answer about Phillip.

So let me go ahead and show you the rest of my cards, and let you know why the situation with Phillip is important to this conversation.

You see, Phillip led the Ethiopian eunuch to the Lord, and baptized him, and then the Lord spirited Phillip away.

In other words, the Ethiopian eunuch never spoke in tongues.

Don:
The fact that I sit here at this computer and pour over the bible and
tend to sidestep my wife's requests to "Go put some more wood on the
fire" or "Are you ever going to do the income tax"...................

.........that doesn't cancel the issue of my love for her.

Same with the eunuch and the BOHS (Baptism of the Holy Spirit).
The preceeding verses in Acts Ch 8 dealt with those who did receive
the BOHS. It was hardly a scandalous, a vague or a devilish act !!!!
Peter and John were administering the BOHS and asking if believers
had received it SINCE YE BELIEVED . Isn't that enough to make
a person wonder if there isn't something more.

So, the fact that it was not mentioned in the bible that the eunuch
received or even asked for the BOHS at that time surely didn't cancel
the issue of the BOHS. It was happening all around him. Possibly he
went on to seek it out. You must wonder ............Yourself !!

 

[Singer]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
Singer,

No, it offered no scripture that tells me I must seek the Holy Spirit Baptism. Are there any that suggest that I must or is that something you just choose to believe even though the Bible never teaches it?

~Lorelei

Yes, Lorelei, there are many and they are possibly ALL within this thread
somewhere. As I just posted to Don, isn't the questioin that Peter and John
themselves posed enough to make you wonder ?

"Have Ye Received the Holy Ghost since Ye Believed " ?? (Acts 19:2)

I know you think it's automatic upon conversion and my experience was
that it is NOT. Same goes for those Peter and John attended to.

[ February 22, 2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Singer ]

 

[Don]

Singer--you still don't see the significance, do you?

There's no account of the eunuch speaking in tongues. There's no account of the jailer in Acts 16 speaking in tongues.

There are multiple accounts of speaking in tongues in order to act as a sign for the witnesses present.

In other words, speaking in tongues has a purpose. The only time someone should be speaking in tongues is when there's a reason for it.

And that reason is exactly what Paul tells us tongues are for: A sign.

Re-read the accounts for yourself and see. In every instance, you'll find that when it's discussed that they did wondrous things (speaking in tongues, for instance) after being saved, it was for a purpose--it was a sign to someone witnessing the event.

There are NOT two different versions of "speaking in tongues." Scripture does not bear this out, as I've already discussed. Paul does not make any distinction between a gift of tongues and speaking in tongues.

Tongues are for a sign, plain and simple. Now, we can argue the semantics of 1 Corinthians 14 till we both fall over dead. I'd suggest you get a good verse-by-verse commentary, such as the King James Bible Commentary by E.Dobson and others, and search it out for yourself some more.

The fact of the matter is, Paul said "I thank God I speak in tongues more than ye all, YET in the church, I had rather speak five words with understanding"; and "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

If you're a believer, then you don't need a sign.

And not everyone is required to seek out speaking in tongues; Paul makes this clear when he says "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation."

He finally makes fully clear his main point of chapter 14 in this statement: "Let all things be done unto edifying."

And he already said, a few verses previous: "Seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church."

Not "in church," but "the church," which, as we all know, is the body of Christ.

Folks, I'm moving next week. I've got a lot of stuff to take care of over the next few days, and my internet is getting cut off Monday. I humbly ask that everyone pray over this matter of speaking in tongues, and may God Bless you all. I'll be back when I get some place where I have internet access.

 

[Lorelei]

Singer, this was covered already in this thread. Since they believed what? Not the gospel, they had only known John's baptism, there is no indication they knew anything of Jesus' death, burial and ressurection. When it says he met certain disciples, we can deduce from the text that he most likely meant disciples of John. These fellows had obviously not heard all the wonderful events that had happened since, or realized that Jesus was the one in whom John was preaching.

Here is my post from back at page 6.

Originally posted by Lorelei:

You claim these disciples were already believers, but were they? How is one saved? What is the gospel?


1 Cor 15:1-5
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
NIV
These gentleman didn't even know all this, all they knew was John's baptism. Paul then clarified and explained that John's baptism was one of repentance (not life giving salvation) and that John told the people to believe in Jesus. Only then did these people become saved for when they heard this they were then baptized and received the Holy Spirit.


Acts 19:4-6
Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
NIV

There was also another post in which I clarified this. So this is obviously not speaking to receiving the Spirit after you believe the gospel, but after you believe John the Baptist, for there was much more to salvation than what John Preached. Even John tells you he was only there to point to the one who was to come after him.

~Lorelei

 

[Singer]

(DHK)
Why are basing all these conclusions on one experience. You have
just demonstrated that your theology arises out of your experience,
and not vice-versa. If we have an experience that is well and good.
But the experience must be checked by the Word of God. That is our
foundation. If the experience goes contrary to the Word of God, then
it is not of God, whether a person thinks it is an answer to prayer or not.

(Singer)
Have to commend you for being thorough, DHK, but we sure take up alot
of space don't we ? It's not that I base all those conclusions on my
one experience. It could also be said that my experience arises out of
those 7 actions...it was surely applied. The expereience was checked
by the Word of God and I am not the first to have found that to be
true. Others have testified of similar incidents and many times the
evidence of tongues is involved. It was not a forced thing with me..the
spirit was in total control. I was a big skeptic DK, even to the point of
mocking my friends. I was encouraged to seek God's advice on it and
not just theirs. I did !!

My experience was not contrary to the word of God as I understood it.
I could not hardly read the bible with "YOUR" understanding now could I ?

(DHK)
We get many things that we ask for, but does that make them
answer to prayers.

(Singer)
Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children:
how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to
them that ask him?

If this is out of context as many of you propose, ( and that Jesus was
only promoting that idea to those around Him at that given time),
then we'll have to conclude that the whole chapter of Luke 11 was only
meant for those present at the time Jesus was preaching. vs. 2-5.

That includes the Lord's Prayer...."Our Father which art in heaven...etc."

Shall we throw that baby out with the bath water too?

Singer

 

[Singer]

(DHK)
"7. Do not seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit." On this, we are not
to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. No where in Scripture are we
commanded to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Can you point
to one Scripture where it says that we are to seek the baptism of
the Holy Spirit. It just isn't there. You should stick to this one.

(Singer)
You claim that none of my 7 items pertain to speaking in tongues.
Remember that the issue that was troubling me was Jesus' own
statement in Luke 11:13 regarding the giving of the Holy Spirit.
In context (meaning it IS for today) (along with the Lord's Prayer) ,
I had gone to the Lord in prayer and in doing so I used the only
avenues of fellowship with God that are available to mankind.

I was not making a public show and I was not using the Ouija Board
or chanting Satanic responses to do so. I was not nor ever have
been on drugs, was not drunk, was not depressed nor on
medication...etc.

It should trouble you that you condemn my avenues of seeking God as
those that would contribute to my deception.

We are to live by faith...mere blind faith and that with evidence.
Think of the fleeces that have been offered in request from God for
answers. Isn't relying on the promises of God an act of faith also ?
Luke 11:9 is the "Ask, seek, knock" verse. Would you like to outdate
it also and say that it too does not pertain to believers today.

Just a red blooded American boy who was seeking the Lord's answer
to a topic that is dear to the heart of God.

And I got my answer and praised the Lord for it

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:
We are to live by faith...mere blind faith and that with evidence.
Think of the fleeces that have been offered in request from God for
answers. Isn't relying on the promises of God an act of faith also ?
Luke 11:9 is the "Ask, seek, knock" verse. Would you like to outdate
it also and say that it too does not pertain to believers today.

Just a red blooded American boy who was seeking the Lord's answer
to a topic that is dear to the heart of God.

And I got my answer and praised the Lord for it

Here is a much misunderstood topic which some have taken to an extreme, in that it has become almost heretical. A Christian does not live by blind faith. When you consider marriage do you put on a blind-fold, walk into a room full of ladies, spin your self around, and blindly pick the one that your finger ends up pointing to? Or, is your choice of a wife based on much prayer, advice of parents and friends and godly individuals such as a pastor? Is it based on the confidence you have in the girl you are about to marry that she is the right one for you, based on her character, and what you already know about her, or did you just "blindly" choose her? Was your faith in her based on some intellectual choices or was it simply blind? I hope you used some common sense (if you are married), and gave some real thought into what you were doing, and did not act blindly.

Christianity is the same way. It does not act blindly. I was not a Christian before I was saved. (That's a profound statement.) What led me to Christianity? First, a conviction that the Bible was the Word of God. Secondly, I was convinced of the reality of the resurrection of Jesus Christ as an historical event. Having been convinced of that it is not too difficult to believe that Christ is who he says he is--God. Christ testifies of the Scriptures--that they are the Word of God. I put my faith in the promises of Christ, the promises of His Word, that they are true, and will not fail. My faih is not blind. In reality it is based on the resurrection of Christ, the cornerstone of all Christianity.

Compare that to Islam and Hinduism. The average Muslim knows little if nothing about his own Koran. He blindly follows whatever his mulvi (Muslim priest) teaches him--right or wrong. That is blind faith. (Some Catholics do the same thing). The Hindu bathes in the Ganges river blindly believing that in doing so his sins will be washed away, and he will come out of that water a more holy person. What is the basis of his belief? There is none. It is a blind belief. He has blind faith. That is in total contrast to the Christian.

1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

You might read the word "confidence" as faith. I have faith or confidence in God that if I ask anything according to his will he hears me.
This is not blind faith. This is asking according the will of God. First I must ask according to the will of God, and first, I must discern what the will of God is for my life.

James 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
--You ask and receive not because ye ask amiss.

In the same chapter James says:

13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
--"If the Lord will" is the key phrase here. Always know what is the Lord's will. The Lord's will is found through prayerful study of the Word of God.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The more I hear God's Word, the more faith I will have. Christianity is a relationship, not a religion. The more I talk to God, and allow God to talk to me through His Word, the more confidence (faith) I will be able to put in Him and in His promises.

Abraham was a man of faith. He had a close walk with God. See what the Scriptures say about him:

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
--"not weak in faith," "staggered not at the promises of God," "strong in faith," "being fully persuaded,"
These expressions all describe Abraham's faith. It was not a blind faith. It was based on the promises of God.
DHK

[ February 22, 2003, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Singer]

Well that was a good compilation of your take on blind faith, but doesn't
change or address my experience.

It might also be said that blind faith is a belief in a God who no one can see,
belief in life after death when we have never known anyone who returned from
the dead and belief that our mortal bodies will one day return ...alive...from the
grave.

We blindly expect God to answer our prayers, blindly expect Him to hear them
in the first place and blindly accept the bible as His word.

Proof comes from believing (faith).....not from actual visual observance.

Depends on how you see the word "Blind".

My experience was still authentic.

 

[Singer]

I posted this elsewhere on this board.
Was so pleased with myself that I thought I should share here too.

Don't we even accept that by faith.....same as our:

Salvation
Belief that water baptism is done in obedience
Holy Ghost encounters (tongues..for one).

Of course the bible says that the bible says that the bible says that the ..........

Without Faith we are still hopeless.
Withuot Faith, it is impossible to please God.
Singer

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Singer:
It might also be said that blind faith is a belief in a God who no one can see,

But we have been told about Him through His creation, through His Word, through His Son and for those of us who have been saved, through His Spirit.

Originally posted by Singer:

belief in life after death when we have never known anyone who returned from the dead and belief that our mortal bodies will one day return ...alive...from the
grave.

It isn't blind faith, I believe it because the Bible tells me it's true. The Bible has never been proven to be in error so I have no reason to doubt those promises.

Originally posted by Singer:

We blindly expect God to answer our prayers,

Only a fool would expect God to hear Him for no reason. We know that God can and does answer our prayers if they are in accordance with His Will because he Tells us that He will in God's Word.

Originally posted by Singer:

in the first place and blindly accept the bible as His word.

All the prophecies have been fulfilled, no one has ever proven it wrong, that isn't blind faith.

Originally posted by Singer:
Proof comes from believing (faith).....not from actual visual observance.

Proof comes from Him in whom we have faith in, not faith in and of itself, that is useless. Proof is always substantiated and upheld in His Word, never outside of it.

Originally posted by Singer:


Depends on how you see the word "Blind".

It depends on what the Bible says about it.

Originally posted by Singer:
My experience was still authentic.

But not necessarily from God.

You better make certain that it is supported in scripture. You can be blind alright, you can be blinded as to what your faith is really in. No experience will contradict the Word of God. No prayer, no matter how long, and no faith, no matter how strong, can cause God to go against His own Word.


~Lorelei

 

[DHK]

Singer,
Do you have faith in your "faith"? Or do you have faith in the promises of the Word of God?

 

[Singer]

(Lorelei)
You better make certain that it is supported in scripture. You can be
blind alright, you can be blinded as to what your faith is really in.
No experience will contradict the Word of God. No prayer, no matter
how long, and no faith, no matter how strong, can cause God to go
against His own Word.

(Singer)
Lorelei, my experience was supported by scripture and is no less
authentic than the salvation of the man who came to know Christ
because he read in the bible about hellfire and brimstone and he
fears for his life. Was that a conversion out of love for God or fear
of burning? And who can condemn it ? Same for my experience.
It has caused a deeper security in me and has caused a profound
concern for the salvation of others. Could that really be
from the devil now....tell me...??

(DK)
Do you have faith in your "faith"? Or do you have faith in the promises
of the Word of God?

(Singer)
I shouldn't even attempt to answer this, but the faith I have in
the authenticity of my experience is from the same source of faith
I have in Jesus Christ as my redeemer. Do you really suppose
satan is that tricky that he could cause someone to have a false
faith in Christ ?

Taken one step further; this applies to YOU TOO !!!

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Singer:
Could that really be
from the devil now....tell me...??

See my post on page 3.

~Lorelei

 

[Don]

Time for one more post before the internet gets cut off....

Do you really suppose satan is that tricky that he could cause someone to have a false faith in Christ ?

Do you really suppose that old trickster isn't tricky enough?

Taken one step further; this applies to YOU TOO !!!

Of course; that's why DHK, Lorelei, and BriGuy do so much bible study, testing the spirits, and testing everything you've provided against scripture!