WHY THE RAPTURE MUST BE PRE-TRIBULATION

So when will the Lord come back for His church,before,in the middle,or at the end of the Tribulation?When properly understood,the Scriptures are quite clear on this subject.I believe they teach that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation begins.

1.THE LORD HIMSELF PROMISED TO DELIEVER US.
One of the best promises guaranteeing the church's rapture before the Tribulation is found in Revelation 3;10;because you have kept My command to persevere,I also will keep you from the hour of trail which shall come upon the whole world,to test those who dwell on the earth (emphasis added).This verse is Christ's own promise to one of His seven churches,the church of Philadelphia.Adherents to the mid-and -post-Tribulation positions suggest God will keep us on earth through the Tribulation.This is difficult to reconcile,however,with other passages that teach that few,if any,believers will populate the earth when he comes with power and great glory at the end of the Tribulation.Instead,the saints who have been kept from wrath are with Him as He descends to this earth.The word from (Greek,ek)in Revelation 3;10 literally means out of.God is saying,I will keep you out of the wrath to come.

CHRISTIANS ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH.
According to 1 Thessalonians 5;9,God did not appoint us to wrath,but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.Again,this passage which follows the strongest passage on the Rapture in the Bible,must be considered in light of its context.For our purpose here,1 thessalonians 5;9 makes it clear that God did not appoint us to wrath (the Tribulation)but to obtain salvation,or deliverance from it.Since so many saints will martyred during the Tribulation,there will be few (if any)alive at the Glorious Appearing of Christ.This promise cannot mean,then,that He deliver believers during the time of wrath,for the saints mentioned there (the Tribulation saints)will not be delievered;in fact,most will be martyred.To be delievered out of it,the church will have to be Raptuered before it begins.

Since the Tribulation is especially the time of God's wrath,and since Christians are not appointed to wrath,then it follows that the church will be Raptured before the Tribulation,while the Glorious Appearing occurs after that.

GOD BLESS.

I see that the anointing is in Windsor, Ontario Canada also.

Originally posted by Elder Fred Wilson:
1.THE LORD HIMSELF PROMISED TO DELIEVER US.
One of the best promises guaranteeing the church's rapture before the Tribulation is found in Revelation 3;10;

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Rev 3:10 was written to the church in Philadelphia. Obviously, the verse did NOT mean "pretrib rapture" to them, the original intended recipients of this passage. If this verse is about "pretrib rapture" for us, we must either conclude that scripture was a lie for them, or that scripture changes meaning. I reject both possibilities, therefore I must reject that this is a "pretrib rapture" passage.

The word from (Greek,ek)in Revelation 3;10 literally means out of.God is saying,I will keep you out of the wrath to come.

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The Greek word "ek" is a general-purpose preposition. It can also mean "of", "in", "by", "on", "with", etc. Like just a few verses later (3:18) where it says "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in ("ek") the fire..."

CHRISTIANS ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH.
According to 1 Thessalonians 5;9,God did not appoint us to wrath,but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Even pretrib teaches that some people become Christians during the tribulation, the so-called "trib saints". They are not appointed to wrath either, but to obtain salvation. Yet they are *present* on the earth. If *they* can be present on the earth during this time, the presence of "wrath" and "Tribulation" does not preclude the church being there as well. In otherwords, again the verse can't have one meaning at one point in time, and another meaning a few years later.

The best reply to all of this, is the example of
Noah. This is the very same example that Christ
used. Was Noah in the Ark with Christ for the
entire FLOOD or did he climb in all wet and
soaked half way through?

Of course, if you don't believe in Noah or that
the FLOOD happened------perhaps the rapture is
but an allegorical tale to keep us all in suspense.

By the way, I say Christ was with Noah becaused
GOD sent animals (Noah didn't go on a safari)
and GOD shut the door to the Ark and not Noah.

So if GOD didn't shut the door to the ark because
it never existed, then there will be no rapture
because there will be no TRIBULATION.

Allegories beget allegories.

Originally posted by A_Christian:
The best reply to all of this, is the example of
Noah. This is the very same example that Christ
used. Was Noah in the Ark with Christ for the
entire FLOOD or did he climb in all wet and
soaked half way through?

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Yes, consider Noah, and the non-allegorical story of the flood:

- Noah didn't leave the earth 7 years before the final destruction of the wicked.
- he was *on the earth* when that destruction came, even though the destruction wasn't "appointed to him".
- when Christ compared his coming to the days of Noah, he compared it in the aspect of the *wicked* being the ones that were "taken away" (Matt 24:39)

Pss.37

[7] Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
[8] Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
[9] For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Hmmm. someones gonna be leavin the earth
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience

[16] A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
[17] For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
[18] The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
[19] They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

yea!

[22] For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

inherit the earth - WHEN?

[34] Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

WAIT WITH PATIENCE
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience

[39] But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
[40] And the LORD shall help them and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

Elder Fred Wilson wrote
One of the best promises guaranteeing the church's rapture before the Tribulation is found in Revelation 3;10


REV.3
[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
[12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
[13] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Well, again i see no raptsure. I do see the people of God waiting patiently for HIM. Right here on earth.

[ September 24, 2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Downsville ]

ISAIAH 25 [4] For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.[5] Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.[6] And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.[7] And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over
all nations.[8] He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and
the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Hmmm..Verse 9? Seems HIS people are waiting for HIM on earth in this scripture also.

Keep in mind verse 8,death swallowed in victory, just as written in cor.15(rapture?)scripture.

Something to think about!

If the angels don't know when the Lord is returning, how can you that are mid, post tribulation believers say that he isn't coming for at least three and a half to seven years?

I see "The Church" in the fourth chapter of Revelation, with the Lord, when the wrath is starting to be poured out, in the fifth chapter.

Planning on being there. ..uh, that is in the fourth chapter.

MEE

Originally posted by MEE:
If the angels don't know when the Lord is returning, how can you that are mid, post tribulation believers say that he isn't coming for at least three and a half to seven years?

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I'm not sure I understand your question. I don't know when Christ is returning, because I don't know when those last 7 years will be.

I see "The Church" in the fourth chapter of Revelation, with the Lord, when the wrath is starting to be poured out, in the fifth chapter.

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Certainly, part of "the Church" is *already* with the Lord. Rev 4 says nothing about the "entire" church being present in heaven at that time.

Hello Mee
If you are not shunning me also i would like to see the scriptures that say the trib will be 7 years. Thanks

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

Tribulation is caused by man, not God. Tribulation is not caused by the wrath of God but by the sin of man.

I find no Biblical support whatsoever that some special class of Christians in the future are going to be privileged to be spared tribulation caused by unbelievers in this world.

I know of at least five tribulations:


The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adan & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

Yes, God will probably not have a special
group of Christians who will get a break
and not have to go through the indignaty
of death. But not because they are special
persons, but because it is God's plan of the
ages to have a Tribulation Period
to save his chosen people Israel as
a racial group.
God will do His plan, despite any of us.

Hi Ed
Thanks for speakin to me. So this scripture in Daniel is what tells you when the rapture is supposed to start.

WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)

Is that all of them?

Ed
Is it in this scripture?

in Daniel 9:26-27

DOWNVILLE,
The prophet Daniel specified a time frame for this day of vengeance,as did John in the book of Revelation.Daniel 9;24-27 says it will last a seven.In this context,years are the subject,which indicates the Tribulation will last seven years.Verse 27 tells us that the evil prince that shall come (Antichrist) will make a covenant with Israel to begin that seven-year period,then break it in the middle of the seven years by desecrating the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.
John divided those same seven years into two three-and-a-half-year periods,neatly paralleling the distinction our Lord made in the Olivet discourse between tribulation and Great Tribulation (Matthew 24;15-21).

No one wants to think of a future period-even a short one of seven years-that will be the greatest time of suffering and terror in all of human histroy.But the Bible is clear on the traumas of this period.Those Christians who believe in a mid-Tribulation,post-Tribulation,or pre-Wrath view of the end time do not realize how much suffering will be packed into those entire seven years.It is unrealistic to spiritualize away the devastations God is going to unleash on this world during the Tribulation.While that period may be short,the judgments will seem endless to those caught in them.Get out your Bible and read the following Scriptures that describe the judgments God plans to send upon the earth at that time.

THE HOUR OF JUDGMENT-REVELATION 14;7
SEAL JUDGMENTS-REVELATION 6
TRUMPET JUDGMENTS REVELATION 8-9
VIAL (KJV;also called BOWL)JUDGMENTS REVELATION 16

GOD BLESS.

Originally posted by Downsville:
Hi Ed
Thanks for speakin to me. So this scripture in Daniel is what tells you when the rapture is supposed to start.

WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)

Is that all of them?

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No.

Math lesson 360 days = one year
1260 days = 3½-years
time, times and half a time = 3½-years
42 months = 3½-years

I need ot run to work.

Look for 1260 days; 42 months;
time, times and half a time in Revelation.

I'll be back.

Hi Ed
Thanks for the math lesson. I could have used youre expertise in math when tryin to convince people that you cannot fit 3 days and 3 nights from fri night to sunday morn. The new math?

Hi guys
Just read Daniel 9. Is this the scripture that"todays prophets" say the prior 69 weeks happened thousands of years ago and the last week is stuck out somewhere in the end of times ? Maybe they should look into the "oblations that ceased" and when that happened. Or for that matter they could look into who the Messiah might be.

So when does that tribulation actually begin? Is it at the beginning of the 7 year period or at the middle of the 7 year period? That is, will the Bride of Christ be witnesses to the first half of that 7 year period or will the Bride be removed from the earth so that the man of perdition (the ruler of the world that brings a pseudo peace) can be revealed?