WHY THE RAPTURE MUST BE PRE-TRIBULATION

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Downsville:
Hi Ed
Thanks for the math lesson. I could have used youre expertise in math when tryin to convince people that you cannot fit 3 days and 3 nights from fri night to sunday morn. The new math?

Unless you happen to be Jewish, that is. Friday, day one. Friday evening/Saturday, day two. Saturday evening/Sunday morning, three.

See, the Jewish people considered the next day begun when the sun set. Today still, in Israel, the Sabbath begins at sundown on Friday evening.

Not new math, my friend. Historical accuracy.

 

[Ed Jones]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
So when does that tribulation actually begin? Is it at the beginning of the 7 year period or at the middle of the 7 year period? That is, will the Bride of Christ be witnesses to the first half of that 7 year period or will the Bride be removed from the earth so that the man of perdition (the ruler of the world that brings a pseudo peace) can be revealed?

The Bride of Christ or the Church is raptured AFTER the son of perdition is revealed. Read 2 Thess 2:1-3 closely:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;(emphasis mine)

In verse 3, it says "that day" will not come unless there is a falling away FIRST and the man of sin is revealed. What is "that day"? The Day of Christ or the Day of the Lord from verse 2.

I believe that everyone agrees that the event that signals the beginning of Day of the Lord is the rapture of the Church.

So read plainly, the rapture shall not come except there be a falling away first and the man of sin is revealed.

Why is this significant? It dates the rapture after the opening of the first seal in the Revelation. The description of the opening of the first seal refers to the revealing of the man of sin (Antichrist) and the beginning of the Tribulation period.

Therefore if the Tribulation has begun there is no "Pre-"Tribulation rapture.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Amazing how a doctrine which was invented in the 1800's can run through Protestantism like fire through gasoline soaked drygrass on a prairie.

The Tribulation?

Happened. Already over. Horrible beyond words.

The "Rapture"

No such beast found in Scripture anywhere. A figment of the fevered imaginations of Protestantism.

The Return of Christ? Yup. That happened also, just as He promised in Matthew. He even set distinct time boundaries which were fulfilled.

So funny watchin' y'all discuss and argue over this as if it is real truth.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brother Downsville: Here is another math lesson
or two.

Yes, 3 days and three nights does NOT fit into
Friday evening at Dusk to Sunday morning before
the sun comes up.

Here is a better way:

Wed evening at sundown - day 0
Thur (Sabboth) evening at sundown - day 1
Fri evening at sundown - day 2
Sat (sabboth evening at sundown - day 3
Sunday morning before sunup (6-7 hours)

Jews become official persons not at birth but
upon circumcision on the 8th day:

day-----date
1.. 25 Dec 1BC
2.. 26 Dec 1BC
3.. 27 Dec 1BC
4.. 28 Dec 1BC
5.. 29 Dec 1BC
6.. 30 Dec 1BC
7.. 31 Dec 1BC
8.. 01 Jan 1AD

Yep, Jesus was born 25 Dec 1BC
and became an officail person on 1 Jan 1AD.

 

[Ed Jones]

(Continued from previous post)

Another consequence of 2 Thess 2:3 is that it leaves the Pre-Tribulation position without a clear biblical passage that describes the rapture of the Church before the tribulation period. Once it is established that the rapture occurs AFTER the revealing of the man of sin, it directly contradicts several passages that are often quoted by the Pre-Trib position:

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

The phrase “until he be taken out of the way” is commonly interpreted as Holy Sprit or the Church. The man of sin is held back (withholdeth, verse 6) until the Holy Spirit (along with the Church) is taken out of the way. This is the opposite of what is indicated from verse 3. Also, because the pronoun “he” is used in verse 7 and the other contextual verses don’t state explicitly who “he” is, “he” does not have to be the Holy Spirit.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This is another passage that is used to show the rapture of the Church before the tribulation. The words “come up hither” are interpreted as the Church being called up into Heaven. Again this is inconsistent with the man of sin being revealed and THEN the rapture. The revealing of the man of sin is represented by opening of the first seal (Rev 6:1-2) which is clearly AFTER Rev 4:1. So this passage cannot be the rapture. There are other verses in the Revelation used to show an early rapture but these likewise occur before Rev 6:1-2.

Without a clear, biblically-consistent reference to a Pre-Trib rapture of the Church, one is forced to discard the position or assume that that future event is not recorded in Scripture.

 

[Downsville]

Hey CC
Where ya goin for the Feast of Tabernacles?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Nice smooth words Ed Jones.
But by the understanding of just a few
words the same scriptures that
lead to the hopless postrib only positions,
if understood right, leave to the Blessed HOpe:
the pretribulation rapture.

The first "and" in Matthew 24:31
The "and" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1
The "first" in Revelation 20:4

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

 

[Ed Edwards]

How do you read the "and" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1?

1. connection of two equal events
(this is how i read it)

2. connection of two descriptions of the
same event?

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned seperately
throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
was a mystery in the O.T. is not mentioned
in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering):

Matthew 24:31-44
Mark 13
Luke 21
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-131
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Amazing how a doctrine which was invented in the 1800's can run through Protestantism like fire through gasoline soaked drygrass on a prairie.

The real amazing part is
how those folk who invented the doctrine
in the 1800s got translators
in the 14th century (1301-1400)
to translate into English the
"apostasy" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as
a form of "depature". Hello! at
the last trumpet of the Gentile Age
we are departing this earth and going to
Heaven.

Yes, the backward in time travel
is really amazing

 

[tragic_pizza]

More amazing is how the only way to be a True Beliver is your way.

Question: What if you're wrong, and the rapture doesn't happen when you say it does? Do you immediately decide that your faith is a sham, God doesn't exist, and nothing is real?

What if Jesus was really crucified an Friday and rose on Sunday, as has been the generally accepted chronology for millenia now? Do you immediately decide that your faith is a sham, God doesn't exist, and nothing is real?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm saying you are waxing verbose on things that are not very important.

Pre-trib? Post-trib? Pan-trib? Be ready. That's what Scripture teaches, and that's what's important.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Pre-trib? Post-trib? Pan-trib? Be ready. That's what Scripture teaches, and that's what's important.

Amen, Sibling Tragic_pizza -- Preach it!

 

[Ed Jones]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Events 2 and 3 are reversed in the Olivet Discourse. Read Matthew 24:29-31:

Mat 24:29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (emphasis mine)

Most people who take the Pre-Trib position do not use the Olivet Discourse to describe an early rapture of the Church because of the obvious inconsistency.

 

[Ed Jones]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
How do you read the "and" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1?

1. connection of two equal events
(this is how i read it)

I agree. However the context is incorrect. Paul is introducing the topic of the day of Christ and the rapture of the Church. Re-read the passage or even better read the NKJV translation:

2 Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 Thess 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Note the word “concerning”. He is opening the discussion of the coming verses not describing a Pre-Trib rapture event.

And as far as the rapture passages are concerned, I agree that the Bible describes the rapture of the Church. However there are no passages that describe a Pre-Trib rapture that is consistent with 2 Thess 2:3.

 

[Ed Jones]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Pre-trib? Post-trib? Pan-trib? Be ready. That's what Scripture teaches, and that's what's important.

I agree with you. However normal human nature will cause people not to be ready. Jesus understood this, that's why He went to great lengths to warn the Church not to be unprepared or fall asleep at the end. (See Mt 24:42-51, Mt 25:1-13, Mt 26:36-41, Lk 13:23-30 and Lk 21 34-36)

As long as the Church can conclude that Pre-Trib position can be supported by Scripture, believers will relax and not be prepared.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Ed Jones:

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
[qb] And as far as the rapture passages are concerned, I agree that the Bible describes the rapture of the Church. However there are no passages that describe a Pre-Trib rapture that is consistent with 2 Thess 2:3.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the PROOF TEXT
for the pretribulation rapture theory.
First the falling away Rapture,
then the revelation of the man of
sin. Last the Second Coming of Jesus when
He comes to destroy the Antichrist.

 

[Ed Jones]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Thessalonians 2:3 is the PROOF TEXT
for the pretribulation rapture theory.
First the falling away Rapture,
then the revelation of the man of
sin. Last the Second Coming of Jesus when
He comes to destroy the Antichrist.
[/QB]

Please take a moment and read my previous posts. A clear reading of 2 Thess 2:3 places the rapture after the revealing of the man of sin and after the beginning of the tribulation period.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Ed Jones:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Thessalonians 2:3 is the PROOF TEXT
for the pretribulation rapture theory.
First the falling away Rapture,
then the revelation of the man of
sin. Last the Second Coming of Jesus when
He comes to destroy the Antichrist.

Please take a moment and read my previous posts. A clear reading of 2 Thess 2:3 places the rapture after the revealing of the man of sin and after the beginning of the tribulation period. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Hello!
Read my LIPS. I disagree with you and you
disagree with me. I see litte reason to
continue to restate my position and for
you to restate your position.

A clear reading of 2 Thess 2:3
places the rapture before the revealing
of the man of sin and before the
Tribulation Period.
I've been reading your argument for 45-years
of the 51 years i've been a Christian
and there is nothing new there.

Here, have some words:

Surely i have respect enough for my
Sister in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't get your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused what what the Bible said.


As i said before, the only differnce between
pretrib and postrib view is the meaning
of a few words:

1. the "and" in 1 Thess 2:1
2. the first "and" in Matthew 25:31
3. The "first" in Revelation 20:5

And that is about all.
Is the word "disagree" in your
vocabulary?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Tragic_pizza: "More amazing is how the only way to
be a True Beliver is your way."

Interesting

if you don't take a stand, you are wishy-washy
if you do take a stand, you are pushy.
Time is short.
Eternity is Long.
I won't be holding my punches.

Tragic_pizza: "Question: What if you're wrong, and the rapture
doesn't happen when you say it does? Do you immediately
decide that your faith is a sham, God doesn't exist,
and nothing is real?"

Like nobody has told me this in the 51 years i've
held to the pretribulation position?
My faith is in Jesus.
My hope is that Jesus will come get
me before i die and take me to heaven.
If Jesus doesn't (and Jesus is on His schedule, not mine)
that will not effect my faith one wit.

Tragic_pizza: "I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm saying you
are waxing verbose on things that are not very important."

I'll let you be right about something, this time
BTW, you have seen only about 5% of my pretrib writings
on this topic.

May God bless you right smartly this very day: Sibling Tragic_pizza.

 

[Ed Jones]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible said versus your opinion of what the Bible said. What the Bible said is true, what the Bible means is your opinion or is my opinion.
Don't get your opinion of what the Bible meant get confused what what the Bible said.

The Bible is the inerrant (without error) Word of God. If one reads the Bible, one cannot draw conclusions that are not based on the clear, logical reading of Scripture.

Our “opinions” don’t matter. We cannot read the Scriptures for the purpose of establishing our opinions. It will take away from our search for God’s truth. And that is what is really important. Once we put His truth first, the Scriptures will become clear.

It has been said that the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself. All of our positions must be confirmed and must not conflict with other Biblical verses and passages. Otherwise it can be argued that the Bible is internally inconsistent, illogical and ultimately erroneous. That is why I continue to repeat the point on 2 Thess 2:3. It opens the door to a clear inconsistency within the Pre-Trib position.

If anyone can find a mistake in my previous posts, I would be more that happy to concede the point. Otherwise the conclusion that the rapture must occur after the beginning of the Tribulation continues to stand.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed Jones: "If anyone can find a mistake in my previous posts,
I would be more that happy to concede the point.

YOur first sentence was wrong:

Ed Jones: "The Bride of Christ or the Church is raptured
AFTER the son of perdition is revealed. Read 2 Thess 2:1-3 closely:"

What value do you put on "revealed"?
Some say the Son of Perdition is revealed when
he commits the Abomination of Desolation.
Others say when folks know the AC is the AC
(like the Daniel 9:27 covenant) is the revealing.

What value do you put on "the Church"
some say the elect saints of all time.
Some say the church-age born-again Christian elect saints.

But instead of you humbly conceding, i'm willing to let
you say "i disagree". I've figured out how to disagree
without being disagreeable. If one prays for good
success for another, it is hard to despise them.

May God lift up my Brother Ed Jones and give him a good
success, his family and his ministry. Amen!

Ed Jones: "The Bible is the inerrant (without error) Word of God."

Amen, Brother -- Preach it!
Please go participate in this inerrancy poll:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001037
Thank you.

The words, the message is inerrant.
The manner in which it is implemented in your life is NOT inerrant.
(unless you have achieved perfection, which
is NOT possible)

Are you ready to see the clear reading of the first "and"
in Matthew 24:31, the pretrib rapture reading?