Your Chance to Defend Islam

Originally posted by Johnv:
If you're comparing founder to founder, Jesus Christ did not come here to found a religious institution.

If you want to compare founder to founder, I guess you'd have to compage Mohammed to Abraham.

Click to expand...

That won't work, Johnv, you're grasping. Muhammed is claimed to be descended from Abraham thru Ishmael.

From a Muslim web site:
"Prophet Mohammed(saw) is the direct descendant of Abraham through his son Ishmael. "

No, Jesus Christ did not come here to found a religious institution. But He is the reason there is Christianity.

Mohammed, on the other hand, founded a religion which is also a political system.

But you still aren't proving that Islam is a religion of peace. You are going off in other directions from the purpose of this thread. Bible Boy is giving you a forum to prove your statements over & over that Islam is a "religion of peace."

Because of Christ, there is Christianity. Islam is claimed to have come from Mohammed. Jesus never killed anyone. Muhammed did.

SheEagle, I think what John means is that Mohammed is not a "Jesus figure" to Muslims - as far as I know, they don't worship Him, and they don't claim he was God. They merely revere him. Mohammed is not the cornerstone of Islam, Allah is. There is no Jesus figure in Islam. You cannot compare the two.

Nimrod,

human Peace is a relative term. To say whether Islam is a peaceful religion you really need to compare it to others.

Earlier I said Mohammed seems a lot nicer then Joshua.

However, to be frank, Moses actually is said to have written the first 5 books of the bible (there are 5 Marys in the new testament) and thus he is sort of our Mohammed.

Moses killed a lot less people then Mohammed and what I liked about him is his refusal to mutilate any ones genitals (boys or girls) - it wasn't until that seemingly satanic Joshua took over did genitals get cut and mass murders begin.

If Yeshua is the reverse of anyone He would appear to be the reverse of Joshua.

We think of Hindus as sometimes peaceful but in fact it is like this:

http://www.krishna.org/images/Krishna/Ronald.jpg

Its funny but not that funny - there have been riots in India when it was found that Mcdonalds used Animal fat on their chips when they said "they are vegetarian".

[ January 04, 2003, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]

Bibleboy, it looks like no one wants to even attempt to show, through its scriptures, that Islam is a religion of peace. It just can't be done. So, sorry if this goes in a direction other than your intended purpose.

Okay, if you can't compare Jesus and Muhammed, then I am going to say that you can't compare Muhammed with Joshua, Abraham, Moses, nor any other Old Testament figure. Why? Because those OT figures are dated way before the birth of Christ. Muhammed, on the other hand, was born in 570 AD - long after the birth of Jesus. Maybe we should compare Muhammed with another leader born after Jesus (since OT figures are cornerstones more of Judaism). How about Paul? And no, not Paul as a Jew, but as a Christian.

Paul v. Muhammed

[ January 04, 2003, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: sodzei ]

Originally posted by sodzei:
Bibleboy, it looks like no one wants to even attempt to show, through its scriptures, that Islam is a religion of peace. It just can't be done. So, sorry if this goes in a direction other than your intended purpose.

Click to expand...

Helen originally posted this article in the forum: News for Baptists world wide. I believe it bears repeating here:

I am posting this up here because I think it is imperative that we, as Bible-believing Christians, make a stand as the author of this article indicates. The recent incident of Christians being gunned down was barely noted by the press, although I can guarantee that if it had been anyone else gunned down for religious reasons it would have made worldwide news.

I don't want to deal with "Is Allah the same as the God of the Bible" which went on interminably below. This author deals with it well, and this article needs to be read by Bible-believing Christians no matter where they are.

==============

MUSLIMS IN OUR PULPITS

It was called the "Congress of the Cults." Over 4,000 priests,
pastors, and ministers from all denominations were assembled. They
had elected Joseph Stalin as their honorary president. One after
another went to the podium proclaiming that Christianity and
communism were fundamentally the same. They could co-exist. They
could "all get along."

A young Christian woman could bear it no longer. She looked at her
husband, a Lutheran pastor, and said, "They are spitting on the face
of Jesus. Go wash the shame off His face." Her husband warned her,
"If I speak against the communists, you will no longer have a
husband." The pastor's wife, Sabina Wurmbrand, simply replied, "I do
not wish to have a coward for a husband."

So Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, a lone voice among the 4,000, went to
the microphone. He was well known in Romania, and everyone believed
he would go along with the assembly for the sake of "peace." He
didn't. He spoke only of loyalty to Jesus Christ. He could not
"co-exist" with any entity that opposed the Great Commission
principle.

For his simple protest, Richard paid dearly-as did countless
Christians who refused to "bow down" to the ways of communism.

Today we face the same scenario. Jesus is being spit upon in American
churches. Christians are selling their soul for a "peaceful
co-existence" found in deceit. But who will come forward and wipe
away the shame?

I cannot take it any longer. How many of our brothers and sisters
must be beaten, tortured, burned or decapitated, before we realize
that Christians and Muslims DO NOT serve the same God?

We love the Muslims. Many of our co-workers put aside their own
safety to reach them for Christ. We print special literature in their
languages; we produce and broadcast special programs into the Middle
East. We are
willing to give our own lives to win the soul of a single Muslim. But
we will never, never align ourselves with Islam and its militant
teachings. To do so would destroy the very witness many of our
brothers and sisters are dying for.

Across America pastors and Christian leaders are allowing
representatives of the Islamic faith to freely speak in their
pulpits. This happened at Willow Creek Community Church, the largest
church in America, where a
Muslim man named Faisal Hammouda was allowed to share the pulpit.
During the interview with Pastor Bill Hybels, Hammouda claimed: "As a
matter of fact, we, all of us...believe in Jesus. I believe in Jesus.
I believe in Mohammed and all the prophets. So our mission here is to
introduce people to God." He also stated, "We believe in Jesus more
than you do, in fact."

But the Koran says, "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)!
Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but
the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no
more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word...." The Koran also
claims that Jesus was never crucified. Muslims do not recognize the
sovereignty of Jesus Christ or His sacrifice. They do not accept the
way of the cross. So how could this be the same God? (Read I John
2:22-23)

Faisal went on to say, "Jihad means striving to improve oneself,
striving to change conditions to better conditions, striving against
evil." Even the Chicago Tribune noted that laughter could be heard
"rolling" through the audience as Hammouda discussed the "true"
definition of a "jihad" saying, "It even could refer to a personal
holy war to overcome, say, a desire to eat more candy."

How foolish have we allowed ourselves to become? Three Sundays after
Faisal Hammouda gave his "enlightening" presentation, 16 of your
brothers and sisters were gunned down in a church in Pakistan. You
may blame this on the war against terrorism, but you would be
mistaken. If it was against America, why did the gunmen target their
countrymen? If Faisal is right and Islam is "peace-loving," why are
our brothers and sisters in ALL Islamic-controlled countries facing
severe persecution? Unfortunately, in his interview, Pastor Hybels
left that question out. This may sound harsh; it isn't. The treatment
that the Body of Christ is facing in Islamic countries is harsh. We
feel truly sorry for Willow Creek. In an effort to "love," they left
out the truth.

There is no love in deceit. We are in danger of loving the Muslims to
hell. What will they say before Christ? Will they say, "But we all
served the same God. We even spoke in Your churches. When did we
persecute You?" God forbid we trade salvation for "safety." Could
Christ have peacefully co-existed with the religious rulers of His
time? Could the apostle Paul have "just gotten along" with the
religious and political powers of his time and avoided martyrdom?

Jesus said that if they hated Him, they will hate us. Nevertheless,
we are called to be a witness. We are not called to figure out a way
to get people to accept us.

If you love the Muslims, tell them about the Jesus they so fervently
persecute. If you love the Muslims, support those who are willing to
lay down their life to be a witness among them (John 15:13). If you
want to
reach your congregation and help "bridge the gap," invite Christians
who have converted from Islam to speak to your congregation.

The simple fact is: Muslims do not "peacefully co-exist" with
Christians. Faisal Hammouda did not speak for Islam. If he thought he
did, he was deceived. Islamic teachings offer no tolerance for those
who reject
Mohammed for Christ. Read the Koran for yourself. Study Islamic
history. Learn the truth about what is happening right now in Sudan,
Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Yemen, Iran, Nigeria,
Tunisia, Egypt, Tajikistan and other countries where Islam has a
foothold. Remember, less than one percent of the Muslim population in
the world lives in America.

If you study Islamic history, you will learn that Mohammed traveled
to Mecca and offered a peaceful doctrine. But it was not accepted. In
fact, he was even persecuted. So he later traveled to Medina where
his teachings took on a more hard-line militant form. Once he gained
a following, he ruled by force. Now his teachings dominate in many
nations. Islam struggles, fights, and even kills for its faith. Once
it gains power, its real face is revealed. "Accept Allah and his
prophet Mohammed, or die."This is happening right now in Indonesia,
where the largest population of Muslims exists.

We challenge Pastor Hybels and other American pastors who believe
Islam and Christianity can peacefully co-exist to visit the Maluku
islands of Indonesia or the capital of Islam, Saudi Arabia, where no
church is
allowed. We ask you to speak with your brothers and sisters who
secretly worship there. (We have.) We invite you to learn the truth,
then decide if you will join with them in winning Muslims for Christ,
or sell your soul for a shroud of peace.

The main issue at stake is the deity of Christ, not mutual
understanding, dialog or feeling good about each other. Any
question-and-answer session or dialog where Christ is not clearly
presented as the only way (John 14:6) and as the complete Godhead in
the flesh (such as Colossians 1:15-20 and 2:8-10, and 1 John 2:22-23)
is blasphemy and a shameful attack on the cross. Christ described His
way as narrow, not an "all faiths club."

The issue is about access and power, not about negotiating away our
Christianity. In Matthew 25:31-32, Jesus proclaimed this path and
power as solely His. As a result, in Matthew 26:3-4, the chief
priests and scribes
consulted that they might kill Him.

Muslims wish to neutralize Jesus for the same reasons the chief
priests and scribes did. Some Christian leaders may try to squirm out
of this conflict to maintain a politically correct, man-pleasing
church. Choose this day
whom you will serve. If we begin to present a fuzzy God (such as, we
all worship the same God), we are opening the doors of hell to our
people, not the door of heaven.

We may be able to peacefully dialog with a Muslim man in America or
in another Western culture. But this is a distorted reality. It is a
partial truth at best. And when we present Islam as another truth, we
spit on the
face of Christ and those who serve His kingdom in Islamic countries.

We do not hate the Muslims. We hate deception. We do not advocate
violence. We advocate love and truth. We desire peace but will not
trade it for compromise. We will reach out to Muslims but will not
deny the
sovereignty of Christ and the cross as the only way to salvation. And
we will not turn our back on our family members who are suffering and
being killed under Islam for their faith and witness in Jesus Christ.
Islam is the dominant force trying to eradicate Jesus Christ in their
nations and neutralize Him worldwide as another "prophet." We will
not prostitute the gospel for a politically correct peace. Should any
of us do otherwise?

If you find any news articles or sermons endorsing all faiths
"serving the same God" in your community, please send this material
to us as we take a stand together for Christ. This will help us as we
try to gain a better understanding of the American church and how it
is addressing Islam. If you or your pastor needs more information
about Islam, please call our office. Thank you for standing with our
persecuted family this Christmas season.

In Christ and for the martyrs,

Dr. Tom White, President of Voice of the Martyrs

The Voice of the Martyrs' 16-page, monthly newsletter is available,
free of charge, to any who request it. Sign up here: Free Newsletter. (edited to create a link to Voice of the Martyrs)

why do people not understand that Islam is not a monolithic religion? that there are as many different flavours of Islam as there are Christianity?

OBL et al are Wahhabist, this is an extreme version of Islam

A number of prominent religious scholars describe Wahhabism as a particularly rigid minority Islamic sect that is intolerant of other forms of Islam, unwilling to accommodate other religions and likely to create a narrow view of the world among its followers

Click to expand...

source

I don't see why the actions of a few members of an extremist church mean that the entire broad church of Islam is violent - could someone explain this for me please?

We are not talking about a small sect within Islam. This thread was created to discuss Islam in its original form under the 'great prophet' Muhammed. This thread is your chance to defend Islam by citing the teachings of Muhammed in the Islam scriptures. According to the Quran and Hadith, Islam is a religion of violence through jihad.

You are aware, though, that the spiritual meaning of the word "jihad" is not "holy war", but "personal struggle". It could be roughly equivalent to Christian understanding of denying oneself (but that's a very rough parallel).

According to the Quran, "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256), thus, no one can be forced to become a Muslim. While it is true that in many places where Muslim armies went to liberate people or the land, they did carry the sword as that was the weapon used at that time. In many places where there are Muslims now, in the Far East like Indonesia, in China, and many parts of Africa, there are no records of Muslim armies going there.

To say that Islam was spread by the sword would be to say that Christianity was spread by guns, F-16's and atomic bombs, etc., which is not true. Christianity spread by the missionary works of Christians. Ten-percent of all Arabs are Christians. The "Sword of Islam" could not convert all the non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries. In India, where Muslims ruled for 700 years, they are still a minority. In the U.S.A., Islam has 6 million followers (the bulk being native born or naturalized citizens) without any sword around.

A verse in the Quran says, [Chapter 5, verse 32], that "anyone who saves one life, it is as if he has saved the whole of mankind and anyone who has killed another person it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind." Anyone who is doing violence is not practicing his religion at that time.

However, sometimes violence is a human response of oppressed people. Although this is wrong, they think of this as a way to get attention. There is a lot of terrorism and violence in areas where there is no Muslim presence. For example, in Ireland, South Africa, Latin America, and Sri Lanka. Sometimes the violence is due to a struggle between those who have with those who do not have, or between those who are oppressed with those who are oppressors. We need to find out why people become terrorists.

Unfortunately, the Palestinians who are doing violence are called terrorists, but not the armed Israeli settlers when they do the same sometimes even against their own people. As it turned out to be in the Oklahoma City bombing, sometime Muslims are prematurely blamed even if the terrorism is committed by non-Muslims.

Sometimes those who want Peace and those who oppose Peace can be of the same religion. That has certainly, and unfortunately, been true of Christianity.

Only through a liberal (distorted) interpretation can you come to the conclusion that jihad means an 'inner struggle'.

"jihad does not primarily refer to a 'struggle of personal piety.' Jihad is combat on the fronts of politics, warfare, and culture... If jihad is only a personal internal struggle, the Prophet misled the people through his actions and words as recorded in the Hadith..."

In surah 2:190, Allah says this: "Fight (jihad) in the cuase of Allah those who fight (ajihad) you." "And SLAY them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter." Surah 2:191

-"Unveiling Islam" by Caner & Caner

Only through a liberal (distorted) interpretation can you come to the conclusion that jihad means an 'inner struggle'.

Click to expand...

no, no, no - different sects of Islam have different interpretations of jihad - Wahabbists believe it is 'holy war', but they do not represent all of Islam.

It is the same in Christianity isn't it? different flavours of Christians disagree on biblical interpretation and meaning don't they?

here is an explaination of jihad

Originally posted by sodzei:
We are not talking about a small sect within Islam. This thread was created to discuss Islam in its original form under the 'great prophet' Muhammed. This thread is your chance to defend Islam by citing the teachings of Muhammed in the Islam scriptures. According to the Quran and Hadith, Islam is a religion of violence through jihad.

Click to expand...

The problem here, as with many sectors of "Christendom" is that most Muslims are ignorant of the teachings of their Koran, as most so-called Christians are ignorant of the Bible. The Koran itself is contradictory in many places. Mohammed in some places commands death to the infidel (meaning the Christian). In other places he says that they shouldn't kill except in self defence. Most Muslims do not follow the Koran, they follow the teaching of their local Muslim cleric, who may or may not be a fundamentalist zealot. They will be riled up according to his emotional speeches rather than what is written in the Koran. Many of these Mulvis, are not as versed in the Koran as they ought to be.

A couple of years ago I wrote a letter to the editor in answer to an article that they had featured about a woman who had converted to Islam, and her testimony putting Islam in a very favorable light. There was some misinformation in the article, and thus the reason for writing. I will give it here, providing some insight to this topic at hand.

Your article, Nov. 5, "From Christian to Muslim," which was a front page story, had much misinformation in it. Spelliscy chose to leave her Catholicism and embrace Islam because she "could accept it in its totality, not just take some parts and reject others." I will agree with that. It does provide a total religion, a total package. But there are other options, such as Biblical Christianity. She says that "Islam is a religion of peace and love." This is being touted by the gullible media everywhere, but it is not true. Allah, their god, has 99 attributes, attributed to him, but love is not among them. He is a god of vengeance, not of love. The U.S. claims to be waging a war against terrorism, yet Islamic nations have been practicing terrorism everywhere within their own borders for ages. In Pakistan, an Islamic Republic, there were 17 Christians gunned down in their church by Muslims just recently. This is not an isolated incident. Persecution of Christians in Pakistan has been going on before that time and will continue to go on. In fact, since then it has only increased. In Saudi Arabia, one is not allowed to hold even a Bible study without being persecuted. Persecution of Christians goes on in nations like Malaysia, Indonesia, Sudan, Nigeria, Iraq, etc. This is terrorism. It is not limited to anthrax and planes crashing into the towers in New York. It is carried out everywhere in every Islamic state. There have been more Christians persecuted for their faith in the Twentieth Century than in any other century.
Spelliscy claims that "women are equal to men in the eyes of God." This is not what their holy book, the Koran, teaches. If fact the Koran teaches in Surah 4:176, "unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two women." Here the context is inheritance. But the suggestion is that two women equal one man.
The Koran allows for more than one wife. It specifies how those women are to be treated in Surah 4:34, "Men are in charge of women because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other...
So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them."
Surah 4:4, "Marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four."
These verses hardly teach that women are equal to men, and they certainly do not teach men to treat their women in a civilized manner. Why are these things never brought out by either Muslims or the media?
Spelliscy claims that "some rights were given to Muslim women centuries before their western counterparts." If she would study the Bible, she would find that women under Judaism and Christianity owned property. In the story of Ruth, Naomi owned the land that her husband had left her. In the New Testament, Lydia was a seller of purple and had a business of her own. In the Second Epistle of John, John writes to the "elect lady," a well-known Christian woman, perhaps one of some apparent wealth. When Peter was released from prison in Acts 12, he went to the "house of Mary," the mother of John Mark. It was Mary's house.
At the end of the article she makes the claim that "Islam means peace." Nothing could be farther from the truth. Islam means submission. Any Muslim cleric will tell you that. Islam is a religion of submission. That is why there is no fear in their soldiers to go to the front lines and fight a super-power with sophisticated weapons. They submit to the will of Allah, knowing that they will be rewarded by him (so they believe). It is not a religion of peace. Ask any Christian who has had experience living in an Islamic nation.
If Leah Spelliscy, Joanna, and others truly want to find peace and joy, they will find it in the One who is called "Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes to the Father but by Me."
DHK

Is it me, or is it next to impossible to discuss the topic without most of the thread being a 'my religion is better than your religion" arguement?

Originally posted by Johnv:
Is it me, or is it next to impossible to discuss the topic without most of the thread being a 'my religion is better than your religion" arguement?

Click to expand...

If Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me," then there is no argument, for there is no other way. Case closed.
DHK

Jesus said "I am the way. He did not say "This is the way", meaning Christianity. That's not the topic. The purpose of the topic was to discuss some misconceptions about the Islam faith, but it's apparant that people will believe inaccuracies about it and think they have a right to do so. Is your faith in Christ that insecure?

Not so hasty, Johnv. I'm willing to see that some verses in the Quran show peace. However, the overall message of the Quran and Hadith are to spread the message of Allah through any means possible - and to slay the infidel.

Johnv says:
"The purpose of the topic was to discuss some misconceptions about the Islam faith, but it's apparant that people will believe inaccuracies about it and think they have a right to do so. Is your faith in Christ that insecure?"

What are the "inaccuracies about it"?

I am willing to agree that there are some passages that show peace, but are you willing to concede that they are outweighed by passages promoting violence?

I am open to the possibility that I am wrong, are you?

Originally posted by Johnv:
Jesus said "I am the way. He did not say "This is the way", meaning Christianity. That's not the topic. The purpose of the topic was to discuss some misconceptions about the Islam faith, but it's apparant that people will believe inaccuracies about it and think they have a right to do so. Is your faith in Christ that insecure?

Click to expand...

Yet no one on this thread is spreading as many inaccuracies as you are via your role as an apologist for Islam. To say that Islam didn't spread by the sword (as you claimed earlier) is to show a total ignorance of history.

Within 70 years of it's founding Islamic armies had conquered Jerusalem by the sword. Within 70 years of Christ's resurrection, Christians were being slaughtered by the sword by others. Yet it grew by not by the sword but by the persuasiveness and truthfulness of it's message. Quite a constrast.

Within 180 years of it's founding, Islamic armies were threatening to conquer Europe. Anyone who claims that Islam didn't grow by the sword (and compares it's growth method to Christianity as you did above) is either purposely distorting the truth or incredibly naive.

Within 180 years of it's founding, Islamic armies were threatening to conquer Europe. Anyone who claims that Islam didn't grow by the sword (and compares it's growth method to Christianity as you did above) is either purposely distorting the truth or incredibly naive.

Click to expand...

Christianity has also been spread at the point of a sword has it not?

What about the conquest of the new world, for example?