Have the "gifts of the spirit" ceased?

If God no longer "speaks" with anyone, then how on earth are we to have a personal relationship with Him?
I certainly do not believe everyone who claims God has spoken to them. Indeed, far too many people carelessly speak on His behalf, based on thier emotion instead of His revelation in thier spirit, while the rest of us earnestly seek to know the knowledge of His will.
From my personal experience, He DOES speak, and ALWAYS in accordance to His Word...I have heard Him speak within my spirit when I am "seeking Him with the whole heart". Indeed, it is not a common occurence with me, but His sheep KNOW His voice.

"Draw near to God and He will draw near to you"
(James 4:8)

Atestring & Calvin4me, fantastic observations!!

There would be no point to even having a bible if God didn't talk to us!!!



Working for Jesus,

Tam,

While I'm not a cessasionist, I do think much of what they say gets misread.

BTW, when I say "cessasionist", I'm speaking of the basic Baptist understanding, not some post-modern mindset that denies the miraculous in the first place.

Here are some misconceptions attributed to them. I've gleaned these from reading this board and from the 15+ years I was in the Charismatic church:

Misconception #1. God does not heal today.

Cessasionists do not believe this. Rather, they believe God does heal today, and they will actively pray for healing for themselves and others. They only believe the formal Gift of Healing has ceased.

Misconception #2. God does not speak to us today.

Cessasionists do not believe this, either. Instead, they do believe God speaks to His children. Moreover they will pray for God's direction and will give testimony to something the Holy Spirit has laid on their heart. Again, they only believe the Gifts related to overt revelation have ceased (tongues, interpretation, prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge)

Misconception #3. God no longer demonstrates His power.

Once more, cessasionists do not believe this. They do believe God continues to intervene in peoples lives and that He does miraculous works. As before, they only insist that the formal Gifts of Miracles have ceased.

I could throw in a few more, but these seem to be the most recurring ones. I don't know if this post will accomplish anything. I only hope it clears the air, a bit.

Thanks for reading!

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
[QB] BACK TO THE ISSUE:

Some of the debate on tongues ceasing IS centered in I Cor 13

When "that which is perfect" is come, then the "in part" will stop.

Special revelation stopped.
Special knowledge stopped (except for Shirley McClaine).
Special language ability (tongues) stopped.

Why? The "perfect thing" came!

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Take a look around. We are not all perfect - nor do we "see face to face" with the Angels. Rather we still "see in a glass darkly". Neither is this the time when "we know even as we are known" by the unseen world in heaven. Nor is this a time when we no longer "walk by faith and NOT by sight".

But aside from all those Bible based problems with the speculative view that "the perfect already came for this world 2000 years ago"...

#1. Was Christ perfect? The perfect revelation of the Father? Surely He was! You can not construe 1Cor 13 to mean "something perfect has come" - if you could then we would have no knowledge after the cross.

#2. Did Paul say "at some future point you will need to guess when the last letter is written that will be included in the NT - once that it written then anyone with a spiritual gift - will lose their spiritual gifts"?

Clearly he did not?

#3. Did Paul EVER say "The Word of God is not yet sufficient" or "the Word of God is not yet cmplete" or "The scriptures are not yet complete" or "The scriptures are still imperfect"?

Nothing of the kind can be found in ALL of scripture - let alone the writings of Paul.

On the contrary Paul said in a number of places "The scriptures ARE sufficient" (2Timothy 3:15-16 comes to mind).

#4. Did spiritual gifts end between 1Cor 12 - where they are detailed and 1Cor 13 where the future in heaven is shown to negate the need for spiritual gifts? Clearly they did not.

#5. When Paul says in 1Cor 14 "Desire earnestly spiritual gifts but especially that you may ..." can we find an excuse today to ignore this NT teaching? Hopefully not.

#6. In Ephesians 4:1-8 Paul defines the scope of spiritual gifts as that which continues until the return of Christ and the perfection of the entire church (not merely the observation that the perfect the Messiah has come).

The "perfect" is non-specific since no object is supplied. But the word in Latin is masculine in its generic form. Digging into that gender argument and taking "all possible generic options" for return, return of Christ, end of the age

Dr. Bob

BTW, "perfect" is an adjective with an understood (but unnamed) subject. So Bible interpretation must be used to figure WHAT it is.

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Indeed it is unnamed. Unfortunately a number of adjectives apply in neutral form to subjects that have gender - when the subject is omitted.

So the "idea" that we only have gender as a clue here is a bit of a stretch.

Having said all of that - the current popular idea of "tongues" does not match what we see in 1Cor 14's detailed discussion or what we see in Acts 2. It hardly qualifies as a modern example of tongues.

In Christ,

Bob

Gal. 5.22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Has 'love and joy and peace' become impossible for Christians to attain/experience? If we who are Christians "live by the Spirit," then it would be (wouldn't it?)impossible for the Spirit's gifts to have ceased.

BobRyan & Jude great post!

There is however one thing I find alarming. When reading the Full Preterist(sp?) in this same fourm. Don't they believe something simular about the 70 A.D. thing? When some believe every thing has ceased at that time? (Although we know the gifts of the Spirit hasn't ceased because we still see the gifts working.)

Originally posted by Jude:
Gal. 5.22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Has 'love and joy and peace' become impossible for Christians to attain/experience? If we who are Christians "live by the Spirit," then it would be (wouldn't it?)impossible for the Spirit's gifts to have ceased.

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Assuming you're referring to the nine special gifts as outlined in 1 Cor. 12:7-10, and not "gifts" in a more generic sense, I tend to disagree. I don't see a binding correlation that living by the Spirit necessitates having or receiving a Gift of the Spirit. Of course, the fruits of the Spirit will grow and flourish the more we walk with Him, but the individual Gifts are given at His will.

While I do not hold that the Gifts have ceased, theoretically, I could see the Gifts ceasing since God can choose to discontinue them. This does not mean Christian growth will cease, nor does flourishing Christian growth imply the Gifts MUST continue.

I'm closer to my 13 year old son than I when he was newborn. I can communicate with him better and share more in our relationship, but I no longer give him a bottle. His closer relationship to me does not imply that I continue every behavior I exhibited toward him when he was younger.

Originally posted by New In Christ:


I'm closer to my 13 year old son than I when he was newborn. I can communicate with him better and share more in our relationship, but I no longer give him a bottle. His closer relationship to me does not imply that I continue every behavior I exhibited toward him when he was younger.

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How the 'bottle' relates to the Gifts of the Spirit, is beyond me. Are you saying somehow that the 'bottle'/gifts are for the immature/baby Christian, but once grown, s/he doesn't need them anymore? Wouldn't the reverse be true?

Originally posted by Jude:
How the 'bottle' relates to the Gifts of the Spirit, is beyond me. Are you saying somehow that the 'bottle'/gifts are for the immature/baby Christian, but once grown, s/he doesn't need them anymore? Wouldn't the reverse be true?

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Oops...sorry...wasn't trying to draw a comparison with the "bottle" and Gifts in the sense that they are for the immature believer. My only point (obviously, poorly made ), was that growth in a relationship with God does not imply that Gifts must continue. It is theoretically conceivable that God could have chosen to discontinue the Gifts, without this having a bearing on our closeness or walk with Him.

Sorry, 'bout the confusion.

Originally posted by music4Him:
Dr Bob I would think that tongues is a language and "not gibberish". [/b]

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I agree fully. But what parades as "tongues" in the modern health-and-wealth Word of Faith movement is a nonsensical gibberish.

I've spent time with Bob Tilton in Dallas and witnessed "tongues" and "interpretation" first hand. It had NOTHING PARALLEL to Biblical tongues.

Dr. Bob,

FYI, you spent time with the wrong bunch!! I wouldn't go across the street to see Bob Tilton!

I think maybe some people are attempting to "throw the baby out with the bath water". Just because some are obviously wrong, that doesn't mean everyone is the same.

Satan has counterfeits of all things of God. He imitates the best. So you will have false tongues,just as you will have false teachers, and preachers etc.

Working for Jesus,

Tam,

Hey Gina,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
You said: DHK, I disagree with just about every single letter in every word of that post.
I will address each of your points tonight when the kids get to bed.
I might even go to church and post from there simply so I can be speaking within a church building at the time.
Gina
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What happened, I haven;t seen it yet!!

Tam

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music4Him:
Dr Bob I would think that tongues is a language and "not gibberish".

Click to expand...

I agree fully. But what parades as "tongues" in the modern health-and-wealth Word of Faith movement is a nonsensical gibberish.

I've spent time with Bob Tilton in Dallas and witnessed "tongues" and "interpretation" first hand. It had NOTHING PARALLEL to Biblical tongues. [/b]</font>[/QUOTE] My great day though, Dr. Bob.... that was Tilton of all people!
You can't judge all the apples that are still hangin' on the apple tree by one bad apple. To let you in on something I won't go see Rod Parsley, John Haggee, Benny Hinn, and Jesse Duplantis (Kenneth Copland's(sp?)buddy(I have seen him once that wa enough). I have been tempted to see Joyce Meyer in person, but I can wait. BTW, people..... about "Bro. Jesse" I have caught him a couple of times not telling a bible story exsactly right (although I know he is somewhat on the comical side he should still know the bible). I can be funny too (well until yesterday when I posted a true story in the clean humor and no one said nothing ), but if I can't get a bible story right.... especially something that was taugh and learned in Sunday school.... its time to slap my face and wake me up. Maybe thats what some of the above preachers need also? But be warned.....it would not make us any better than what they are doing and to top it off we'd probley be sued.

But I am sorry that you had a negative exsperiance(sp?) with Tilton.

Music4Him

Hi all,

Lots of small disagreements continuing here. Let me clear one thing up. The 70ad issue. DHK has shown why tongues was not needed after 70ad. I think I used the example of putting a "curve ahead" sign after the curve. You never see a "sign" after the thing it points to, has come. It defies logic in every sense to do that. Tongues, Paul says, will fade away on their own. That is what the verb, in greek, for "cease" means. Cease = fade or better yet fizzle out. Knowledge and prophecy "cease" when something happens or acts on them causing them to end. That is what the greek word that Paul uses to describe their ending point means. P and K end at a different time then T's that is clear and I can't see how it can be disputed. So the question is that if the "perfect" is the Bible All the "gifts" are gone. If the perfect is the coming eternal state of a person then at least some "gifts" remain. I believe God still gives the service gifts, and I believe that because I can't believe God would be that abstract about the perfect being the Bible. My view seems to satisfy all the problems the other views have. well, of course I see it that way anyhow.

In Christ,
Brian

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music4Him:
Dr Bob I would think that tongues is a language and "not gibberish".

Click to expand...

I agree fully. But what parades as "tongues" in the modern health-and-wealth Word of Faith movement is a nonsensical gibberish.

I've spent time with Bob Tilton in Dallas and witnessed "tongues" and "interpretation" first hand. It had NOTHING PARALLEL to Biblical tongues. [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]Dr. Bob , Unless you can speak aprox. 35000 languages fluently , How do you know if this is gibberish?
Maybe you just heard one of the languages that you do not speak. BTW how many languages do you speak fluently?

One the previous post I meant to say that there are approx. 3500 languages I typed in an extra zero by mistake.

The word Gibberish is not in the Bible and Nobody has ever ( though I have challenged several times on the BB) given me a greek or hebrew Word for the Word Gibberish. This is a word thrown around to try to Make Charismatics look ignorant.
Having said that : What would be so bad if Speaking in Tongues is just gibberish since Paul said If a person prays in an unknown tongue Their mind is unfruitful. He does not stop his sentence there but says: "However in the Spiririt He speaketh mysteries.
Call it what you want to if mysteries (unknown to us) are spoken by us or to us why would this be a problem? I do not believe a mystery spoken to a person by God would be something that does not line up with scripture.
I once had a fellow Baptist tell me on the subject of Speaking in Tongues: "It may be scriptural but it's not Baptist. When being Baptist is more important thatn being scriptural that's a problem.

Originally posted by atestring:
Unless you can speak aprox. 35000 languages fluently , How do you know if this is gibberish?
Maybe you just heard one of the languages that you do not speak. BTW how many languages do you speak fluently?

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Atestring, this question has been answered before (I think many times before). All languages have certain things in common--syntax, grammar, words, sentences, etc. Professional linguistics have gone in and examined what passes off as tongues today (gibberish), and have concluded that what is spoken today is not and cannot be a language. Their is no cohesiveness, no construction to what is being spoken. It is simply a rapid repitition of the same vowel and consonant sounds over and over again. That is not a language. One does not have to know all the languages of the world to discern whether or not it is a language.

Because it is not a language at all, it is called "gibberish," a modern day phenomena that is not found in the New Testament. The reason that the word is not in the Bible is because this type of tongues is not in the Bible. It is purely a modern day phenomena that began at the beginning of the 20th century.
DHK

DHK, or anyone else:
How many times, factually, have you in your life heard tongues (which you consider false)? About 10 times? About 100 times? About 1000 times?
The answer does matter, though I don't know if you will want to answer this.

Would you portray yourself as an expert on tongues in the first century? Do you know of any extra-biblical sources on tongues that deal with the first century?

Do you think that the New Testament is exhaustive on the gifts of tongues as it was used in the first century?