Salvation

yeah, i do..because baptism is for the remission of sins. You can't be saved when your sins have not been remitted....Peter said the like figure whereunto baptism doth also now save us...

And by the way...the Bible plainly says that they hadn't received the Spirit yet...and if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his...

Originally posted by bishopnl:
yeah, i do..because baptism is for the remission of sins. You can't be saved when your sins have not been remitted....Peter said the like figure whereunto baptism doth also now save us...

Click to expand...

You misunderstand the verse. Baptism simply gets you wet. Notice that baptism was given after they believed, after they were saved.

And by the way...the Bible plainly says that they hadn't received the Spirit yet...and if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his...

Click to expand...

The church was in a state of transition. This was the first time that the gentiles had received the gospel. It was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that made the difference. The major thing to notice is that salvation preceeded any outward manifestation of the spirit, and it also preceeded baptism.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
DHK

You misunderstand the verse. Baptism simply gets you wet. Notice that baptism was given after they believed, after they were saved.

Click to expand...

ummm...according to acts 2:38 baptism is for the remission of sins...for is the greek word "eis"...which means "in order to receive"...

"4": Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Click to expand...

You can't walk in newness of life until you've been buried with him in baptism...

and by the way, show me in Acts 8 where it says that they were saved when they believed....

It just says they believed...it was only when Peter and John laid hands on them that they received the Spirit...before that time...they did not have the Spirit...

And if belief is all that is necessary...

"19": Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Click to expand...

does that mean the devils are saved?

and if baptism just gets you wet, how come Peter commanded it? Seems kind of silly that he would command someone to do something that was not necessary for salvation...

Singer, saying "Jesus is Lord" (even Demons will say such things) doesn't save you nor does it indicate you are saved.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven." Matthew 7:21

Have you done the will of the Father? How do we do the will of the Father?
“You need endurance to do the will of God and receive what he has promised.” Hebrews 10:36
So, once again we see that doing the will of God is how one gets what has been promised to him, we do this through endurance, endurance through the trials and tests of faith and keeping a strong love for the Lord, that is his will. If it is impossible to be unable to endure after being "saved" then this language along with many other scriptures is poorly written and has no purpose.

“Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, it will have great recompense.” Hebrews 10:35

Again, if it is impossible to throw away your confidence or hope then this is yet another scripture in vain.

J.S.,

Do you know of any demons who've said "Jesus is Lord"? Just because they
believe in God doesn't mean that they've been offered salvation through faith.
They couldn't get saved if they wanted to now could they? So what good is
their believing....on the other hand our choice to believe or not believe is the
key to our salvation.

3:36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that
believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth
on him

If you want to twist that verse to mean that believing is not the answer,
go for it. That verse also does not justify the demons because it is not
given unto them to believe unto salvation.

Now the biggie is what to believe. That's simple and non denominational.


Believe.............
..."that God hath raised Him from the dead." Rom 10:9

You need endurance to do the will of God and receive what he has promised.” Hebrews
10:36

Let me describe what receiving the promise means then in Catholic terms.
I have received the promise, receiving the promise and will receive the promise.
It is assured, a fact, bonafide, guaranteed.

There are other verses pointing to what the will of God is. Christ's death
on the cross was the will of God. It is not God's will that any should perish.

1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye
should abstain from fornication:

1 Thessalonians 5:18
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus
concerning you.

Originally posted by bishopnl:
ummm...according to acts 2:38 baptism is for the remission of sins...for is the greek word "eis"...which means "in order to receive"...

Click to expand...

I've had this discussion before. Maybe it would be simpler to search the archives. Anyway, eis is used 1,773 times in the New Testament. It doesn't always have the same definition, in fact it is translated over 30 different ways. One of the most common translations/meanings of "eis" is "for." It is translated "for" 140 times, as it is here. What does the word "for" mean? Let's take a couple of examples from Mark to discern the proper meaning of this word.

1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Lk.3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

--John didn't baptize in order that they might receive the forgiveness of sins as you suggest in Acts 2:38. He baptized when he saw signs of repentance because their sins had been forgiven. The baptism followed. John would only baptize unto or because they had alraedy repented. The "for" means "because of"

"4": Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Click to expand...

You can't walk in newness of life until you've been buried with him in baptism...

Click to expand...

The burial of the old life and walking in the new life in Christ is purely symbolic. It symbolized in baptism after one is saved by believing on the sacrifice that Christ paid on the cross.

and by the way, show me in Acts 8 where it says that they were saved when they believed....

Click to expand...

Check Acts 16:31; 10:43; Rom. 10:9,10,13 Acts 4:12; John 3:16,36; 1John 5:11-13; John 5:24, for starters.

It just says they believed...it was only when Peter and John laid hands on them that they received the Spirit...before that time...they did not have the Spirit...

Click to expand...

That's all it has to say. They believed. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That's what they did. You do believe the Bible don't you?

And if belief is all that is necessary...

"19": Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Click to expand...

does that mean the devils are saved?

I'll let you answer that all by yourself.

and if baptism just gets you wet, how come Peter commanded it? Seems kind of silly that he would command someone to do something that was not necessary for salvation...

Click to expand...

Do you witness (Acts 1:8)? That was a command given even before the Day of Pentecost. Is it necessary to witness to be saved.
"Pray without ceasing." Is it necessary to pray without ceasing, in order to be saved.
Does a person have to keep all the commands of Christ and/or the New Testament in order to be saved. If that be the case then we all are doomed.
DHK

You have changed your argument around, not suprisingly though. You tried to demonstrate that by your ability to confess "Jesus is Lord" with your mouth that you have the Holy Spirit and so are saved. Many can confess that, as Jesus said several will shout out "Lord, Lord", that doesn't mean they are saved. Obviously you have realized this now.

John 3:16 says if you have faith then you will have everlasting life, if you don't have faith then you will have damnation. Who says otherwise?

Doesn't God want all of us to secure our lives, isn't that part of his will? How do we secure our lives?
“By your perseverance you will secure your lives.” Luke 21:19

Perseverance in what?

"Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life that he promised to those who love him." James 1:12

Ah, all back to this love thing, what is with this love theme and what does it count for?

"For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love." Galatians 5:6

"If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love." John 15:10

How do we get eternal life then? We get it by having faith which works in love and abides in hope. That is the triforce.

"For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?" Romans 8:24
You don't have hope because you already have eternal life, your hope sees for itself.

“Remain faithful until death, and I will give you the
crown of life.” Revelations 2:10

"But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved."
Matthew 24:13

If it is a sure thing, then why do we need to be warned so much? Why do we need to be told this for example, “Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, it will have great recompense.” Hebrews 10:35

Why this unneccessary verse along with many others? Why do we need to be told constantly not to throw away our hope, not to throw away our faith and to keep and hold what we have if it is impossible to do so? Just answer that one question for me.

I like to thank all the posters who contribute to what I feel is a great
discussion! It's wonderful when we can all present our opinions and
not be stepping on other person's feelings. I truly enjoy the mature, considerate and thoughtful
contribution of ideas expressed by all.

Now, back to the discussion.

New testament was written in common greek.
Greek is a living language, one way that new words come into the language is when words are borrowed from other
languages. See Trust.. Hebrew Original Word "ejlpivzwto". Greek" Elpizo" v. show confidence in a person by intrusting (him)
with something. See Believe . Hebrew, Original Word " pisteuvw" Greek " Pisteuo" v. to think to be true, to be persuaded of,
to credit, place confidence in , and of the thing believed.

Trust and believe have common elements, We believe, We trust, verb, "confidence in" our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes
in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" "Yes, Lord," she
told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world." John 11:25-27

dave

Justified Saint,

Wherein lies our division?

Okay okay...I won't throw away my confidence.

Are we together on this issue then?

Singer

The division is; is it possible for one to throw away their faith and hope. If it is possible then "eternal security" can't be true since the theory means that once you have faith you are saved and there is nothing that can undo this. The Bible however says we can throw away our hope and our faith and since eternal security says we can't, it isn't in our power to do so, there is a clear contradiction here.

In conclusion then, the notion of "I was saved, am being saved, and will be saved" is quite biblical. That doesn't mean once you start the first stage you are going to finish all three of them, otherwise we would just call it "once saved, always saved"

J.S.

But then don'tcha wonder why God would save someone and apply the blood
of Jesus to his sins, give him a new spirit (Born Again); only to withdraw all of
that and yet leave the way open for him to regain his status by going through
all of those steps again.....over and over and over ?

I can imagine that I've grieved the Holy Spirit (God) at times, but I don't expect
that I lost my salvation because of it and had to start over from Step # 1 again.
I didn't loose my confidence, my promise of eternal life "to those who believe".
My belief and faith in the blood of Jesus did not falter...my confindence stayed
intact. I didn't have to start over by being convinced that there IS a God
and that His Son came to earth and took my place in death and then go through
the motions of making a committment in whatever way I was convinced to do so.

(To the Catholic, this might mean joining the "church").....to a Protestant this might
mean going forth at an altar call and making a public stance . To me it meant being
influenced by the HS of this great truth (Gospel) that I came to believe in. It also
caused me to "confess with my mouth and believe in my heart". It did not lead me
to baptism nor did it lead me to any certain church. I remain unchurched and
unbaptized and I enjoy the promise of eternal life because it is a gift that God has
offered to "whosoever believes in me". (Jesus)

Interesting ....isn't it ?

Well, one of the problems is your understanding of righetousness from an imputed and infused perspective.

The question is pretty simple Sing, why does the Bible warn us not to throw away our hope and faith if it is impossible to do so?

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
Well, one of the problems is your understanding of righetousness from
an imputed and infused perspective.

And I guess that you have to decide how to balance your theories with the
fact that Jesus said whatever the Father gave Him, He would in no wise cast out.

And then weigh that against Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon
the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I have no problems with God's promises as I expect him to carry through on his
word. If you fear losing your confidence, maybe you should expect more from God
and not fear your own actions. Peace is derived that way....through faith.
Your fear is not from God..........who's scaring you?

Sorry that I'm imputed and infused in your mind, but then that description
matches others of your flock who have said I'm stubborn, misinformed, reluctant,
deceived, unwilling and downright stupid.

I expect this from you......but at least you can rest assured that you're Normal !!!

To Singer, in Nebraska,

If you have listened to 'Back to the Bible' out of Lincoln, Nebraska, you are right on target and in the center of orthodox Christianity. Wasn't Dr. Epp the Bible expositor of years ago?

Ray

The basis of your argument forces you to reach such a conclusion, since you are no more holy now then you were 27 years ago then it must be said that it is impossible to lose faith and hope, of course this isn't in harmony with scripture.

Yes, even you admit it. This position is weighted very heavily on a few verses.

It isn't about God keeping his promise, it is about you keeping yours. Is it not written that He will throw out any branch that does not bear fruit? Is it not written that He will spit out from his mouth the one who is lukewarm with their faith? Is it not written that He will remove from the tree of life those who take away from His word? Is it not written that he will erase the names of those from the book of life who do not keep the faith?

You still haven't answered my question.

Singer --

I remain unchurched and unbaptized and I enjoy the promise of eternal life because it is a gift that God has offered to "whosoever believes in me".

Click to expand...

Think about this. Your statement is akin to an OT Jew saying "I remain uncircumcized and refuse to participate in the Temple services which God ordained, but I enjoy the promise of the coming Messiah because God promised it to "whosoever believes".

Ridiculous.

You cannot recieve eternal life at the Judgement Seat of Christ unless you are part of the New Covenant Kingdom, and you cannot be part of that kingdom unless you have choosen to enter it by the means which God ordained -- baptism.

I know you had a bad experience with a cult group. That does not mean that our Lord's Church is a cult or can be ignored with impunity. The Church was established to provide a living witness to the truth here on earth, both in the Old Covenant and in the New Covenant, and regardless of the failures of Her kings and bishops, Her truth is unshaken.

You really need to reconsider your position in light of God's covenant.

Cordially in Christ through the Theotokos,

Brother Ed

You cannot recieve eternal life at the Judgement Seat of Christ unless you are part of the New Covenant Kingdom, and you cannot be part of that kingdom unless you have choosen to enter it by the means which God ordained -- baptism.

Click to expand...

This simply is a lie! Eternal life is not based on membership in an organization PERIOD!!!. Jesus, the Son of God said in John 3:16 that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but Have everlasting life.

Jesus is the highest authority on eternal Life and who gets it! Your church has no such authority!

Yeslew, take your blinders off.

Honestly. It gets so annoying when people are so fixated on a few passages of scripture that the rest of scripture becomes skewed to fit what one believes is true based on only a few passages.

If you knew more, you would know that what has been said doesn't by any means mean that one will never get to heaven if they haven't been baptized.

Brother Ed:

Only one small (actually HUGE) difference is that the OT individuals were under
the law and I'm not. Live by the law and be judged by the law...remember?

"I remain uncircumcized and refuse to participate in the Temple
services which God ordained, but I enjoy the promise of the coming Messiah
because God promised it to "whosoever believes".

Ridiculous.

Sorry if that offends you that Jesus said "whosoever believes" so many times.
But......that's the nature of the gospel, Ed. It's sooooooo simple, an easy burden
and a light yoke. Many people and many churches make it such an illusive thing
and confuse it with all these wild concoctions and big words.

For gosh sakes; you're setting the stage for new believers to become an
Endangered Species !!

Singer --
Only one small (actually HUGE) difference is that the OT individuals were under
the law and I'm not. Live by the law and be judged by the law...remember?

Click to expand...

Then EITHER you reject Paul's statement in Romans 3 that NNE is justified by the works of the Law

OR you believe that ALL OT saints go to hell. (Or perhaps you are Mormon - and believe that the dead have more chances to get saved and become born again).

And that seems kind of "odd".

In Christ,

Bob