Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

Sorrry Lorelei, We had a really bad ice storm and our power has been out for two days. I am over at my parents house for a moment and I wanted to touch base with you and let you know what was going on.

I really do apologize for this... Please forgive me?

I will get back on the topic when I get back to work on Monday

God bless

 

No sir, from these three verses we see that the EXACT same person raised up Jesus.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

Here we find out that the comforter is the Holy Ghost. Now that we know this lets back up a few verses.

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jesus tells us that the Father will give us another comforter which will abide with us forever. (according to verse 26 we know this comforter to be the Holy Ghost.)

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jesus then lets them know that the world cannot receive this comforter b/c the world cannot see it. BUT then he told them that they know this comforter b/c he dwells with them. (Who is dwelling with them? Jesus!) And then goes on to say that the one dwelling with them shall be in you.

18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

JESUS SAID I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS I WILL COME TO YOU

Jesus is going to go away but he will come back again as the Holy Spirit. He is not comeing back as a separate Person or enity. Jesus is comeing back as the Holy Ghost. The same person diffrent manifestation.

Now this is a good example of not reading the entire text. Lets look at it with what you left out.

Romans 8:9-11 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Paul is speaking to the church of Rome about the Spirit living in us. He says that we are not in the Flesh but in the Spirit If the Spirit of God dwells in us.

Then he went on to say that if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his.

WOW!! does this mean we must have two spirits in us? NO! Eph 4:4 lets us know that there is only ONE Spirit.

10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

How can Christ be in us? Christ is in us b/c he is the Spirit of God, He is the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost. John 14:16-18 Also Eph 4:6 lets us know that there is ONE God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and IN YOU ALL.

The Father is the Spirit of Christ that is in us today.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

Who raised up Jesus? John 2:19 lets us know Jesus would raise himself from the dead. If the Spirit that Raised Jesus from the dead dwells in us, we will be raised by that same Spirit. And we know that Jesus will soon be in us

John 14:16-18 lets us know that Jesus is going to come back as the Comforter. We know that The Comforter is the Holy Spirit. (John 14:26) We know that God is Spirit (John 2:4) And we know that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ. (Rom 8:9)

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not three distinct Persons. These are three manifestations that God chose to reveal himself to humanity. He is the Father in creation, he was the Son in Redemption and he is the Holy Spirit that lives in us today.

Matthew 28:19 lets us know that when we call upon the Name of Jesus we are calling upon the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

God bless

 

Lorelei, why would you want to call the bible a theory for? And of course I am assuming it to be true b/c of what I believe. I believe the bible is true, Don’t you?

Question: How many thrones will we see when we get to heaven?

Answer: Rev 4: 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Rev 4: 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The elders will sit in 24 seats around the throne.

Rev 4:8-9 lets us know that The Lord God Almighty is the One on the throne.

Rev 1 lets us know that Jesus cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

JESUS IS ALPHA AND OMEGA THE BEGINNING AND THE ENDING WHICH IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHT.
JESUS IS THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY THAT SITS ON THE THRONE

the lamb took the scroll out of his hand.

God bless

 

I'm really sorry about the order that I replied. I know I should have answered yours first. Sorry about that. As soon as I posted the answers to your questions I noticed what you had written.

Godbless

By the way...What was your answer to my question.

How many thrones will there be in heaven?

 

Who then is the Lamb

~Lorelei[/QB][/QUOTE]

Lorelei, I am going to be honest with you. You are right in the fact that these are visions.

And you and I know that almost everything in Revelation is symbolic.

Lorelei, I was going to try to put this in my own words. I could do it but sometimes i have a hard time putting into words what I want to say.

I'm going to post you a piece from the "Oneness of God" by David K. Bernard. And let me say again from the onset that "The Oneness of God" Is not my bible. But when I do have questions on things I use it for refrence. Let me also say this. I also do searches on the net to see what other peoples views are on things as well. ie. a trinitarians view.

The Lamb In Revelation 5

Revelation 5:1 describes One on the throne in heaven with a book (scroll) in His right hand. Then verses 6-7 depict a Lamb who comes and takes the book out of the right hand of the One that sits on the throne. Does this mean there are two persons of God? No. Once again, we must remember that the Book of Revelation is highly symbolic. In fact, we know the passage in question is symbolic. First, John did not see the invisible Spirit of God, because John himself said no man has ever done that (John 1:18, I John 4:12). In fact, no man can see God (I Timothy 6:16). Revelation 5:5 says a "Lion" would open the book, but in verse 6 John saw a "Lamb" instead. Verse 6 says the Lamb was slain but yet it moved. It had seven eyes, which symbolize the seven spirits or the sevenfold Spirit of God (verse 6) and the omniscience of God (Proverbs 15:3). The Lamb had seven horns, which signify the fulness of God's power or God's omnipotence, because horns in the Bible usually symbolize power. (See Zechariah 1:18-19; Revelation 17:12-17.) All of the description of this scene demonstrates the symbolic nature of the passage. To understand it we must find out who the One on the throne is and who the Lamb is.

Revelation 4:2 and 8 describe the One on the throne as the "Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." Yet, in Revelation 1:8 Jesus describes Himself as "the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." (See 1:11-18 and 22:12-16 for further proof that Jesus is the speaker of 1:8.) Also the One on the throne is the Judge (Revelation 20:11-12), and we know that Jesus will be the Judge of all (John 5:22, 27; Romans 2:16; 14:10-11). Therefore, we can conclude that the One on the throne is Jesus in all His power and deity.

The Lamb is the Son of God - Jesus Christ in His humanity, particularly in His sacrificial role. The New Testament identifies Jesus as the Lamb who offered His blood for our sins (John 1:36; I Peter 1:19). That is why Revelation 5:6 describes the Lamb as slain. God could not and did not die; only the humanity of Jesus died. So the Lamb represents Jesus only in His humanity as a sacrifice for sin. The rest of chapter 5 also proves this by describing the Lamb as our Redeemer.

That this Lamb is not merely an ordinary human is evident since He has the fulness of God's Spirit, including omniscience and omnipresence (verse 6). He has other roles as the Lion of the tribe of Judah and as the Root of David (verse 5). The Lion denotes Christ's kingly role and His descent from King David. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah (Matthew 1:1-3; Luke 3:33), which was the tribe of royalty from the time of David. The lion is the symbol of Judah as ruler (Genesis 49:9-10). The Root of David alludes to Christ's role as David's source (Creator) and David's God.

Another fact supports our point that the Lamb represents Jesus in His humanity rather than as a second person in the Godhead. The reason the Lamb appears is to open the book held by God. Many interpret this book to be the title deed of redemption. Others see it as symbolic of the mysteries and plans of God. Either way, it required a human being to open, for God did not redeem us nor did He reveal Himself to us in His role as the transcendent God. He used His manifestation in human flesh as the means both to reveal Himself and to be our kinsman redeemer. (See Leviticus 25:25, 47-49.) So the Lamb represents the humanity of Christ.

Many prominent trinitarian scholars agree that Revelation 5 is symbolic and does not describe God the Father on the throne and God the Son standing by the throne. The Pulpit Commentary identifies the One on the throne as the Triune God, [28] and the Lamb as the Christ in His human capacity. It states, "The Son in his human capacity, as indicated by his sacrificial form of the Lamb, can take and reveal the mysteries of the eternal Godhead in which he, as God, has part." [29] Thus, even in the eyes of trinitarian scholars, this scene is not an indication of a trinity in the Godhead.

We can conclude that the vision in Revelation 5 symbolically depicts the two natures and two roles of Jesus Christ. As Father, Judge, Creator, and King, He sits upon the throne; for in His deity He is the Lord God Almighty. As the Son, He appears as a slain lamb; for in His humanity He is the sacrifice slain for our sins. John did not see the invisible Spirit of God, but he did see a vision symbolically portraying Jesus on the throne in His role as God and as a lamb in His role as the Son of God sacrificed for sin.

If a person insists upon literalizing this demonstrably symbolic passage, then he would need to conclude that John still did not see two persons of God, but rather that he saw one God on the throne and a real lamb near the throne. This is not logical, but it reveals that the attempts of trinitarians to make the passage a proof text for a trinity is futile.

Other verses in Revelation make it clear that that Lamb is not a separate person from God. In particular, Revelation 22:1 and 3 speak of "the throne of God and of the Lamb," referring to the one throne of 4:2 and 5:1. After mentioning "God and the Lamb," Revelation 22:3 goes on to talk about "his servants," and verse 4 refers to "his face" and "his name." The Lamb and the glory of God light the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:23), yet the Lord God is the light (Revelation 22:5). So, "God and the Lamb" is one being. The phrase refers to Jesus Christ and designates His dual nature.

We conclude that Revelation 5, symbolic in nature, reveals the oneness of God. It describes One on the throne, but also describes a lion, a root, and a Iamb. Does this description reveal four in the Godhead? Clearly not. Rather, there is only One on the throne. The lion, the root, and the lamb all represent in symbolic form the characteristics and qualifications of the One worthy to open the seals of the book. The lion tells us He is the King from the tribe of Judah. The root tells us He is the Creator. The lamb tells us He is God incarnate and our sacrifice. It is only in this last role that He can be our Redeemer and can open the book. Thus, Revelation 5 teaches there is one God and this one God came in flesh as the Lamb (the Son) to reveal Himself to man and to redeem man from sin.

 

Lorelei, you have not asked me a single question that I have not been able to answer.

On the contrary you asked me a question that I gave an answer for. So what if someone can answer it better than myself.

Listen Lorelei the Lord our God is One Lord. You insist on he is seperated in three Persons. I have shown you time and time again that God is a Spirit.

There is only going to be one God when we go to heaven. How are we going to be able to see three in One? That makes no since.

You are right the human mind cannot comprehend something that is not. LOL

Lorelei if we look in the scriptures we are told that we can comprehend the Godhead. (Romans 1:20) It is not a great mystery. Truth is mentioned in Scripture. The Mystery is not how God is three Persons it a Mystery how God manifested himself in the Flesh (1 Tim3:16)

Do you agree that the Godhead is not a mystery?

 

May I ask what scripture contridicts my beliefs?

If you are referring to Revelation you should think again sister. Revelation does nothing but establish that Jesus is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Ther first and the Last. The One that was is and will be.

God bless

 

Lorelei, there is only going to be One Throne.

Deut 6:4 Hear Ol Israel the Lord our God is one Lord.

If there is only One Lord/One God there is only going to be One Throne.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I'm not sure the meaning but I am sure that it does not imply a pluralty in the God head. If this were so, Where is the Holy Spirit. If they are all three Co eternal, Co equal, than we would expect to see all three in the Throne.

Im not sure what it means but I know one thing that it DOES NOT MEAN

Also Rev 21:4-6 lets us know

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Jesus is Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. And Jesus is who we will see on the Throne.

[ December 12, 2002, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

Time for another Greek lesson. Look what the NIV says:

This difference disturbed me so I went back and checked the original manuscript in both the TR (used in the KJV) and the Nestle (Used in the NIV). Guess what, they were the same word. In the greek manuscripts used in translating the NIV.

The word in the Greek that says throne in verse two is the same as the one in verse 4. The 24 elders will be sitting upon thrones.

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I am not going to partake in a one sided discussion. If you aren't going to acknowledge anything I say, then whats the use?

~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]Of course I looked at it. Of course you were right.

I thought I commented on it. Sorry if I did not. I may have started to and not have finished. Please forgive me.

I guess my comment would be this.

A seat can be a throne, but the commode is a throne also Just a little bit of humor for the morning.

Ok The same word is used in the Greek. Thronos I believe it was. Jesus our Lord will be the one on THE throne.

Just b/c its the same word in the Greek it still has several diffrent meanings.

2362 thronos {thron'-os}

from thrao (to sit), a stately seat ("throne"); TDNT - 3:160,338; n m

AV - throne 54, seat 7; 61

1) a throne seat
1a) a chair of state having a footstool
1b) assigned in the NT to kings, hence, kingly power or royalty
1b1) metaph. to God, the governor of the world
1b2) to the Messiah, Christ, the partner and assistant in the
divine administration
1b2a) hence divine power belonging to Christ
1b3) to judges i.e. tribunal or bench
1b4) to elders

A throne also means a seat.

Lorelei I think you and I both believe that the Elders and Apostles are not going to sit on the Exact same throne as our God. But I cant speak for you and I dont know how you preceive Rev 3:21.

God bless

 

Were you going to tell me how you view Rev 3:21?

 

Is that a "NO"?