Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

[Dualhunter]

Look at the word, Elohim, as you quoted it is a plural word (3 or more, Hebrew has a separate dual tense for 2) used as a singular name. Notice, God, not Gods, the plurality is not in the number of Gods but within the Godhead, hence the plural word is written as God with no "s".

These are not my words:

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

You have consistently avoided explaining this because you cannot. There is indeed one Lord God who is our Saviour, He eternally exists in 3 persons. Each of the persons behaves like just that, a person. It takes a person to send and in the above context it takes a person to be sent. We have 2 persons here and there is a 3rd who is not mentioned in these verses, these 3 are God, not gods nor even Gods. They are Yahveh our Elohim.

Every time you post Scripture supporting the fact that there is 1 God you are swinging at an imaginary foe for we have never said anything other than there is 1 God, 1 Elohim.

John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Notice that the Word was both God and with God just as in Zechariah, the LORD of hosts was God(by virtue of bearing the name YHVH was God) and was sent by the LORD of hosts (God) after glory. Both of these actions require distinction in person (one is sender, the other is sent, in John 1:1 the Word is one and is with another who is God) and unity in Godhood (both are called YHVH of hosts and therefore God, in John 1:1 the Word is God).

[ November 12, 2002, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Dualhunter ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
Look at the word, Elohim, as you quoted it is a plural word (3 or more, Hebrew has a separate dual tense for 2) used as a singular name. Notice, God, not Gods, the plurality is not in the number of Gods but within the Godhead, hence the plural word is written as God with no "s".

These are not my words:

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

You have consistently avoided explaining this because you cannot. There is indeed one Lord God who is our Saviour, He eternally exists in 3 persons. Each of the persons behaves like just that, a person. It takes a person to send and in the above context it takes a person to be sent. We have 2 persons here and there is a 3rd who is not mentioned in these verses, these 3 are God, not gods nor even Gods. They are Yahveh our Elohim.

Every time you post Scripture supporting the fact that there is 1 God you are swinging at an imaginary foe for we have never said anything other than there is 1 God, 1 Elohim.

John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God."

Notice that the Word was both God and with God just as in Zechariah, the LORD of hosts was God(by virtue of bearing the name YHVH was God) and was sent by the LORD of hosts (God) after glory. Both of these actions require distinction in person (one is sender, the other is sent, in John 1:1 the Word is one and is with another who is God) and unity in Godhood (both are called YHVH of hosts and therefore God, in John 1:1 the Word is God).

Look at the word, Elohim, as you quoted it is a plural word (3 or more, Hebrew has a separate dual tense for 2) used as a singular name. Notice, God, not Gods, the plurality is not in the number of Gods but within the Godhead, hence the plural word is written as God with no "s".

Elohim…Let me see, You take this to mean 3 persons. Let me ask you something how many Persons are in Jesus Christ? How many persons are in the Golden Calf that the Israelites created to worship when Moses went to the top of the mount to get instructions from God? How many persons were in the Pagan Gods such as Baalberith, Chemosh, Dagon, Baalzebub, and Nisroch?

I can promise you and I can prove to you using the bible and I can show you in the bible that Elohim can not mean three persons.

You have consistently avoided explaining this because you cannot. There is indeed one Lord God who is our Saviour, He eternally exists in 3 persons. Each of the persons behaves like just that, a person. It takes a person to send and in the above context it takes a person to be sent. We have 2 persons here and there is a 3rd who is not mentioned in these verses, these 3 are God, not gods nor even Gods. They are Yahveh our Elohim.

And you have constantly avoided The words in Ehph. that say ONE LORD, one faith, one baptism. If you are going to separate God in two three separate parts or persons than you separate his Oneness and everything else that has to do with him.

I have not avoided Zech 2. God does not exist in three persons. Ask a Jew if God is three Persons. What would they say? You say God acts like a Person. You say it takes a “Person” to send and to be sent. No…It takes a God who is omnipresent and is big enough to do just that. God can be the sender and the sent all at one time. I would like to ask you, who is limiting God? Is it us or is it the Trinitarians? Your right his name is Yahveh. And we find out in the New Testament that Elohim has manifested himself as the Son of God. Not another Person or God.

When you separate God you leave so much undone. Here are some examples
</font>

• Genesis 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
  If God was talking with two other persons in Gen 1:26 and if God exists in a plurality of Persons than God was wrong when he said “by myself”</font>
• Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
  
  God does not exist in a plurality of persons. He is one, he is by himself</font>
• Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
  
  Again, God is by himself. He does not have two other people converting with him in the Godhead.</font>
• Jeremiah 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.
  
  Where are the other two witnesses at. God is alone in heaven by himself. He is alone, no one else is with him.</font>
• Jeremiah 49:13 For I have sworn by myself, saith the LORD, that Bozrah shall become a desolation, a reproach, a waste, and a curse; and all the cities thereof shall be perpetual wastes.
  
  If the Lord is by himself where are the others at? God is not three persons, He is one.</font>
• Ezekiel 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
  
  How can God do this by himself if he exists in three persons?</font>
• Amos 6:8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by himself, saith the LORD the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein.
  
  Every one knew that God did not exist in a plurality of Persons. If they understood something else it would have been said.</font>
• Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; THERE IS NONE. beside me.
  
  How much more proof do you need to see that God is by himself? If he were three he would not be by himself.</font>

I could go on and on but I think you get my point. The bible lets us know in Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

In order to understand Christ we must first understand who God is. And we can go to the Old Testament and find that out. We can find out that God is One. That he is alone and that he is by himself. So when we come to the New Testament it should be no surprise to understand that the Son of God is the Father revealed in Flesh. Just b/c God is being sent and God is the one who is sending does not require that we divide God and separate him. It just requires that we need to understand what OUR one God is capable of doing by himeself.

Every time you post Scripture supporting the fact that there is 1 God you are swinging at an imaginary foe for we have never said anything other than there is 1 God, 1 Elohim.

I challenge you to go and say that to any Jew. Listen to their strict monotheistic views. When God came in the Flesh that was the biggest stumbling block for the Jews. They understood how God was omnipresent but they did not understand how God being a Spirit could make himself visible to man. That is why they cannot except the fact that Jesus is the Messiah. And Please feel free to take that Challenge. But I will warn you, when you tell them that Their God is Three, you better watch yourself.

I’m sure you have heard me say it before. The Jews were talking to Jesus and were going to stone him. Jesus said “why do you stone me”? “Is it for my Good works”? And the Jews said, “we stone you not b/c of your Good works but you being a man, you are making yourself to be God”.

The Jews had it a little backwards. Jesus was not a man that was making himself to be God. He was a God that had made himself man.

John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God

Notice that the Word was both God and with God just as in Zechariah, the LORD of hosts was God(by virtue of bearing the name YHVH was God) and was sent by the LORD of hosts (God) after glory. Both of these actions require distinction in person (one is sender, the other is sent, in John 1:1 the Word is one and is with another who is God) and unity in Godhood (both are called YHVH of hosts and therefore God, in John 1:1 the Word is God

Before you go saying anything about the “Word” Please understand what the “Word” is. Ask yourself why the writers never used the word “Son” save only one time in Matt 28:19. The word “Son” represents the flesh or the “Man”

The word “WORD” means “LOGOS” and Logos is a plan in the mind of the creator. Strongs lets us know the first time “logos” was used was around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. And then goes on to say “This word was well suited to John's purpose in
John 1.”

Gods Word is no more a separate person than our words are separate People from us.

Thank you

 

[Dualhunter]

Just as the Jews stumble on the nature of God, so do you. Strange that you are able to accept the dual nature of Christ but the Triune nature of God. Zechariah 2:8-9 does not read like this:

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory [I am coming] against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of [my] eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that [I am coming]. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB (unitarian version)

It reads like this:

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

The Logos already meant something to the Greeks, but that does not change how John used the word "Logos". John wrote, "the Word was with God and the Word was God". The last phrase in the Greek is literally "God was the Word". The Word is not a mere plan, the Word is the eternal Son of God who is Himself God.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. - John 1:1

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
Just as the Jews stumble on the nature of God, so do you. Strange that you are able to accept the dual nature of Christ but the Triune nature of God. Zechariah 2:8-9 does not read like this:

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory [I am coming] against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of [my] eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that [I am coming]. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB (unitarian version)

It reads like this:

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

The Logos already meant something to the Greeks, but that does not change how John used the word "Logos". John wrote, "the Word was with God and the Word was God". The last phrase in the Greek is literally "God was the Word". The Word is not a mere plan, the Word is the eternal Son of God who is Himself God.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. - John 1:1

Dualhunter, I have shown you that God is by himself. If you dont want to listen to me Listen to the bible. Thats where I got the scripture.

Just b/c Christ has a dual nature does not mean god is Triune. We are made in the image of God. Are we three persons? The Godhead is understood by the things that were made (Romans 1:20) We are his image creature. How many persons do you have?

I dont have time to argue with you. I have shown you scripture that Says "God is by himself" If God is a Trinity and he is infact three seperate Persons or People, God could not say he was by himself.

Im sorry you are hung up on Zech 2. I have already offered you what I beleive. If you dont like it Im sorry.

I have shown you that God is not two Lords. The bible tells us there is only "ONE LORD". Eph 4:5.

Im not shareing what I beleive b/c it sounds good. I'm shareing it with you b/c thats what the bible teaches.

The Word was with God and the Word Was God, thats correct. Are your words with you? Are your words antoher person from you?

The Word is not a mere plan, the Word is the eternal Son of God who is Himself God.

Eternal Son huh? Hebrews 1:6 calls the son the First begotton. The son is also the Only Begotten. How can you be eternal if you were begat? In order to be begotten there needs to be a begetter. The sonship had a beginning. This is also contridictory to the Doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity states that They are all three co eternal.

But the Son of God had a beginning. On the contrary the Word has always been. Not as a second person. The Word was with God in the beginning and when the fullness of time Came the Word became flesh and it was called the "Son of God". (Luke 1:35)

The "Son" was the Word in the Beginning. The Word is a Plan. The Son Gods redemptive plan. Not another Person. The Word is our one true God.

God bless

 

[Dualhunter]

"The Word is a Plan

The Word is our one true God."

Which is it? Looks like you're saying that God is a plan.

It was the Son who said "before Abraham I am".

1 (1) In the beginning was (2) the Word, and the Word was (3) with God, and (4) the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 (5) All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 (6) In Him was life, and the life was (7) the Light of men.
5 (8) The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [1] comprehend it. - John 1:1-5 NASB

Verse 1 declares the Word to be with God and to be God. Verse 2 again identifies the Word as being in the beginning with God. Verse 3 says that all things came into being through Him and that apart from Him nothing has come into being, therefore He is eternal because He existed prior to the creation of all created things.

Later in verse 14:

14 And (18) the Word (19) became flesh, and (20) dwelt among us, and (21) we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of (22) grace and (23) truth.

This same Word who was with God, was God, and through whom all things are created, is the only begotten from the Father.

In verse 18:

18 (31) No one has seen God at any time; (32) the only begotten God who is (33) in the bosom of the Father, (34) He has explained Him.

A non-Trinitarian view of this verse is self-contradictory. How can God not be seen if God is seen? The answer is that no one has seen God, the Father, but the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father (i.e. the Son), He has explained Him.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
"The Word is a Plan

The Word is our one true God."

Which is it? Looks like you're saying that God is a plan.

It was the Son who said "before Abraham I am".

1 (1) In the beginning was (2) the Word, and the Word was (3) with God, and (4) the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 (5) All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 (6) In Him was life, and the life was (7) the Light of men.
5 (8) The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [1] comprehend it. - John 1:1-5 NASB

Verse 1 declares the Word to be with God and to be God. Verse 2 again identifies the Word as being in the beginning with God. Verse 3 says that all things came into being through Him and that apart from Him nothing has come into being, therefore He is eternal because He existed prior to the creation of all created things.

Later in verse 14:

14 And (18) the Word (19) became flesh, and (20) dwelt among us, and (21) we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of (22) grace and (23) truth.

This same Word who was with God, was God, and through whom all things are created, is the only begotten from the Father.

In verse 18:

18 (31) No one has seen God at any time; (32) the only begotten God who is (33) in the bosom of the Father, (34) He has explained Him.

A non-Trinitarian view of this verse is self-contradictory. How can God not be seen if God is seen? The answer is that no one has seen God, the Father, but the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father (i.e. the Son), He has explained Him.

Ok...Lets slow down and study this out.

(1) In the beginning was (2) the Word(not son), and the Word(not son) was (3) with God, and (4) the Word was God(Not son).
2 He (the word, not son was in the beginning with God.

There was a beginning to the Sonship. There was never a begining for the Word. The Word has always been, the Son has not.

14 And (18) the Word (Not Son)(19) became flesh, and (20) dwelt among us, and (21) we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of (22) grace and (23) truth.

The only way the "Son" was in the beginning was as the Word of God. Not a seperate Person or enity.

Again the Sonship had a beginning. It was at conception. The "Word" became flesh at conception not the Son.

How do we know this? The bible lets us know when and why the son was called the "SON". Luke 1:35 says "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: THEREFORE also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Word is called the "Son" b/c God is causing the conception.

It was the Son who said "before Abraham I am".

The Sonship was not before Abraham, but the Eternal Spirit inside that flesh was before Abraham b/c he is the One true God that has always been.

Why would you want to follow a doctrine that says the Son was eternal? The bible lets us know that The Son had a beginning. The bible is clear that he was begotten. And I am sure that you do not wish to refute that.

18 (31) No one has seen God at any time; (32) the only begotten God who is (33) in the bosom of the Father, (34) He has explained Him.

What bible are you reading out of? You are now telling me that God was begotten? The Correct text should read "Son"

The Father was manifest in the Son. And when Jesus accends back to heaven I can show you that Jesus will manifest himself through the Holy Spirit.

I'm Sorry we dont see eye to eye. I know what the bible teaches on this issue. I have more bible if you would like. I will never run out.

I am not trying to attack your doctrine, but it is a man made doctrine. You dont have to take my word for it, and i know that you want. It was after the apostolic age when the word Trinty and the belief of a Triune God came.

The Bible does not teach that God is three. The Bible only teaches that God is One.

God bless

 

[Dualhunter]

"What bible are you reading out of?"

NASB

1 (1) In the beginning was (2) the Word, and the Word was (3) with God, and (4) the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 (5) All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 (6) In Him was life, and the life was (7) the Light of men.
5 (8) The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [1] comprehend it. - John 1:1-5 NASB

The subject here is the Word and "all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

17 "For God (27) did not send the Son into the world (28) to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. - John 3:17 NASB

Here we see that the Father sent the Son into the world. This clearly shows that the Son existed prior to the incarnation because the Son was not created in the world but rather was sent into the world.

Compare Zechariah 2:8-9 with John 3:17:

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

The eternal Son who is God, was sent into the world after glory by the eternal Father who is God.

 

[Dualhunter]

Here's another one for you:

17 "Even in (21) your law it has been written that the testimony of (22) two men is true.
18 "I am He who testifies about Myself, and (23) the Father who sent Me testifies about Me." - John 8:17-18 NASB

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
Here's another one for you:

17 "Even in (21) your law it has been written that the testimony of (22) two men is true.
18 "I am He who testifies about Myself, and (23) the Father who sent Me testifies about Me." - John 8:17-18 NASB

Jesus has two natures. The Man Christ Jesus and The Eternal Spirit of God could both Testify.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
Here's another one for you:

17 "Even in (21) your law it has been written that the testimony of (22) two men is true.
18 "I am He who testifies about Myself, and (23) the Father who sent Me testifies about Me." - John 8:17-18 NASB

Jesus has two natures. The Man Christ Jesus and The Eternal Spirit of God could both Testify.</font>[/QUOTE]The Son says that the Father who sent Him testifies about Him. It is the Son and the Father who are mentioned as giving testimony here, 2 persons are mentioned and 2 (or more) persons are required according to the Law.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
"What bible are you reading out of?"

NASB

1 (1) In the beginning was (2) the Word, and the Word was (3) with God, and (4) the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 (5) All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 (6) In Him was life, and the life was (7) the Light of men.
5 (8) The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [1] comprehend it. - John 1:1-5 NASB

The subject here is the Word and "all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

17 "For God (27) did not send the Son into the world (28) to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. - John 3:17 NASB

Here we see that the Father sent the Son into the world. This clearly shows that the Son existed prior to the incarnation because the Son was not created in the world but rather was sent into the world.

Compare Zechariah 2:8-9 with John 3:17:

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After (13) glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the (14) apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will (15) wave My hand over them so that they will be (16) plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

The eternal Son who is God, was sent into the world after glory by the eternal Father who is God.

Here we see that the Father sent the Son into the world. This clearly shows that the Son existed prior to the incarnation because the Son was not created in the world but rather was sent into the world.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Did John Pre-Exist too?

God manifested himself in the Flesh. God made himself known through the Son. Being sent does not require pre-existance.

II Corth 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God is not a "they". God was in Christ reconciling the world unto "HIMSELF"

1 John 3:16 says "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because HE laid down HIS LIFE for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren".

God did not send a second person to come die for our sins. What kind of God is that. If you love someone how much since does it make to send someone else to die for them? Would you not do it yourself dualhunter? Lets get a little personal.

Think of the person you love the most. If it came down to it wether its your children, Wife, Parents or Who ever. If there lives were in danger would you send someone else, or would you do it yourself?

God did not love us so much that he sent someone else to die for our sins. He loved us so much that he came himself and died for us. Not as a seperate person but as the Son of God. Dualhunter, God manifested himself in a human body and called it the Son. He called it his Son B/c he was the one that caused conception (luke 1:35) Now that the Eternal Spirit of God has a Body he can Now die and shed blood for our sins.

Did the Eternal Spirit of God have Blood? Could the eternal Spirit of God die? The only way that was possible was for him to create himself a body. He called that body the Son.

God bless

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Did John Pre-Exist too?

John existed prior to his being sent, John was sent to baptize at the Jordan at some point after his birth. The Son on the other hand was sent into the world and therefore existed prior to being sent into the world (i.e. prior to the incarnation).

17 "For God (27) did not send the Son into the world (28) to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. - John 3:17 NASB

[QB]
God manifested himself in the Flesh. God made himself known through the Son. Being sent does not require pre-existance.

To be sent, you must first be. If the Son did not yet exist, He could not be sent.

II Corth 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God is not a "they". God was in Christ reconciling the world unto "HIMSELF"

1 John 3:16 says "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because HE laid down HIS LIFE for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren".

God did not send a second person to come die for our sins. What kind of God is that. If you love someone how much since does it make to send someone else to die for them? Would you not do it yourself dualhunter? Lets get a little personal.

Think of the person you love the most. If it came down to it wether its your children, Wife, Parents or Who ever. If there lives were in danger would you send someone else, or would you do it yourself?

God did not love us so much that he sent someone else to die for our sins. He loved us so much that he came himself and died for us. Not as a seperate person but as the Son of God. Dualhunter, God manifested himself in a human body and called it the Son. He called it his Son B/c he was the one that caused conception (luke 1:35) Now that the Eternal Spirit of God has a Body he can Now die and shed blood for our sins.

Did the Eternal Spirit of God have Blood? Could the eternal Spirit of God die? The only way that was possible was for him to create himself a body. He called that body the Son.

God bless

16 "For God so (23) loved the world, that He (24) gave His (25) only begotten Son, that whoever (26) believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. - John 3:16 NASB

17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I (22) lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 "(23) No one has taken it away from Me, but I (24) lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. (25) This commandment I received from My Father." - John 10:17-18 NASB

The Father gave His Son for the world, knowing that His Son would lay down His life.

What I would do is irrelevant. God so loved the world that He gave His unique Son, that's what God says contrary to your denial of it. The Son is not the flesh only but both God and man. The Word was God and the Word became flesh. The Son is God and the Son took up the flesh, adding it to Himself.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dualhunter:
Here's another one for you:

17 "Even in (21) your law it has been written that the testimony of (22) two men is true.
18 "I am He who testifies about Myself, and (23) the Father who sent Me testifies about Me." - John 8:17-18 NASB

Jesus has two natures. The Man Christ Jesus and The Eternal Spirit of God could both Testify.</font>[/QUOTE]The Son says that the Father who sent Him testifies about Him. It is the Son and the Father who are mentioned as giving testimony here, 2 persons are mentioned and 2 (or more) persons are required according to the Law.</font>[/QUOTE]You are very correct in the fact what was said by the Pahrisees, and by the law. And there were two witnesses. The “Man” Christ Jesus, and The Father. The Son had two natures as you have already explained. His humanity and his Deity could both testify. The Law did require two witnesses but asked for three when it was possible. (Deut 17:6, 19:15). If God really wanted to prove that he was the Second person in the Trinity, Why did he not mention there are three witnesses?

Furthermore Jesus said John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he ye shall die in your sins.

John 14:1-9
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from HENCEFORTHye know him, and have SEEN HIM.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jesus said concerning the Father “From henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Jesus just told them when you look at me you are looking at the Father. You are not seeing me in Spirit form but you are seeing me as a man.

Phillip said shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. And Jesus said Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known ME Phillip? The Son was the Father manifested in the Flesh.

Jesus also said that the Father was in him. There is no doubt that the Spirit that is in the Man Christ Jesus is none other than that of the Father.

I am still confused to know why you guys label the Trinity as three different “Persons”? You say that Persons is the best term man could come up with. But the Bible has come up with “God is a Spirit”. If God were three it would make since to say that God is three separate Spirits. Why is it that you don’t say that God is Three separate Spirits?

After all the Father is a Spirit, The Son is a Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit. So isn’t that Three separate Spirits?

Can you answer that for me?

God bless

 

[ONENESS]

To be sent, you must first be. If the Son did not yet exist, He could not be sent.

Gal 4: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

I don’t think I need to explain that. But just in case. The Word was God and with God in the beginning. Gods Word was not second person. Gods Word was God himself. When the fullness of Time came God robed his Word in Flesh and Called it the Son. The Son was not made before the Law, he was made under the law. The Son was not made eternally he was made of a woman.

The Father gave His Son for the world, knowing that His Son would lay down His life.

What I would do is irrelevant. God so loved the world that He gave His unique Son, that's what God says contrary to your denial of it. The Son is not the flesh only but both God and man. The Word was God and the Word became flesh. The Son is God and the Son took up the flesh, adding it to Himself

Yes the Father did give the Son, but the Son is not a second person. The Son is the Father incarnate. As I said before. God could not die. Death was not required for remission of sins, The shedding of Blood was. And it had to be perfect. There was no one on Earth who was perfect. No one could fill the position that needed to be filled. And God being a God of love did that for us. He did not send a second person. How could God Bleed? God had to make himself a body of flesh just like you and I. So he made himself a Body and sent himself.

You are right The Son is not flesh only but both God and Man. The Son is the Flesh and The Father is the God. When you hear the word “Son” it does not refer to deity, it always refers to the Flesh.

Now Going a step further we know that The Holy Spirit is none other than the Father in his Spirit essence. Jesus proclaimed to be the other comforter that would be sent (John 14:15-18) Thus making it possible to say for in Christ dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. We find in Christ everything that the Godhead is.

Coll 2:8-10
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

The bible then goes on to say that we are complete in him. Which is the Head of all Principality and Power. Jesus is the only thing we need. We don’t need to seek after three persons. When we call on Jesus we call on the one true god who manifested himself as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Jesus is above YHWA or YHVA. God gave Jesus a Name which is above ANY OTHER NAME.(Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name)

God bless

[ November 13, 2002, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[Dualhunter]

His humanity and his Deity could both testify. The Law did require two witnesses but asked for three when it was possible. (Deut 17:6, 19:15). If God really wanted to prove that he was the Second person in the Trinity, Why did he not mention there are three witnesses?

Now you're making Christ to be 2 persons. This same Son whom you claim is merely the flesh, claimed not to be the Father but to be one with the Father, the Son is not the Father but He is God. I prefer what the Bible says over your version, Jesus (who is God) testified about Himself and the Father (who is God) who sent Him also testifies about Him too. The Holy Spirit also testifies but that isn't mentioned in these verses as 2 witnesses is enough.

You seem to prefer the KJV, so here you go:

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5:7 KJV

Furthermore Jesus said John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he ye shall die in your sins.

This is the same Son speaking, who spoke in John 8:17-18, yet you say that the Son is not God but only flesh in denial of His statement "for if you believe not that I am he ye shall die in your sins".

I already mentioned that the Son who is God, reveals the Father:

18 (31) No one has seen God at any time; (32) the only begotten God who is (33) in the bosom of the Father, (34) He has explained Him. - John 1:18 NASB

Jesus also said that the Father was in him. There is no doubt that the Spirit that is in the Man Christ Jesus is none other than that of the Father.

Jesus also said that He is in the Father:

21 that they may all be one; (47) even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, (48) so that the world may believe that (49) You sent Me. - John 17:21 NASB

After all the Father is a Spirit, The Son is a Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit. So isn’t that Three separate Spirits?

Can you answer that for me?

God is Spirit, not a Spirit, He does not have corporeal limitations. The 3 persons are 1 God.

I don’t think I need to explain that. But just in case. The Word was God and with God in the beginning. Gods Word was not second person. Gods Word was God himself. When the fullness of Time came God robed his Word in Flesh and Called it the Son. The Son was not made before the Law, he was made under the law. The Son was not made eternally he was made of a woman.

Earlier you said the Word was God's plan ignoring that the verse says that the Word was God and now you say that the Word is God and you've ignored that the verse says that the Word was with God.

4 But when (3) the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, (4) born of a woman, born (5) under the Law, - Galatians 4:4 NASB

The Word became flesh by being born of a woman, God's Son was already existing, hence God could send His Son who was then born of a woman.

Yes the Father did give the Son, but the Son is not a second person. The Son is the Father incarnate. As I said before. God could not die. Death was not required for remission of sins, The shedding of Blood was. And it had to be perfect. There was no one on Earth who was perfect. No one could fill the position that needed to be filled. And God being a God of love did that for us. He did not send a second person. How could God Bleed? God had to make himself a body of flesh just like you and I. So he made himself a Body and sent himself.

You are right The Son is not flesh only but both God and Man. The Son is the Flesh and The Father is the God. When you hear the word “Son” it does not refer to deity, it always refers to the Flesh.

You've contradicted yourself, is the Son flesh or God incarnate?

The Son is the Word who became flesh, not the Father. It is the Son who is both God and man.

Jesus is above YHWA or YHVA. God gave Jesus a Name which is above ANY OTHER NAME.(Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name)

Jesus means "YHVH saves".

 

[ONENESS]

You seem to prefer the KJV, so here you go:

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5:7 KJV

Humm…Why would the Son not be mentioned here? The term “SON” Refers to the Flesh. Not another person in the Godhead. The Son has not always been. The Son was made of a woman under the Law when the fullness of time Came. (Gal 4:4)

That is one of many contradictions that the doctrine of the Trinity holds. Your doctrine should read “God the Word”. There was a beginning of the Son. You cant prove any different. The Son was made of a woman. The Son was begotten. Again that means he had a starting point in time. That means that the Son is not co-eternal like your doctrine states.

“The Word became flesh”. The bible never states that the Son became flesh. Furthermore the bible never says “God the Son”. The Bible always refers to him as “The Son of God”. This is another Contradictions that the Doctrine of the Trinity upholds.

I already mentioned that the Son who is God, reveals the Father

He not only reveals the Father but he is the Father manifested in the Flesh. (I Tim 3:16)

18 (31) No one has seen God at any time; (32) the only begotten God who is (33) in the bosom of the Father, (34) He has explained Him. - John 1:18 NASB

Tell me, do you believe that God had a beginning? If you don’t maybe you should look up the word begotten. Dualhunter, I know I am right on this. The Flesh of Christ is not eternal. Do you believe that?

Jesus also said that He is in the Father:

That’s b/c Jesus is the Father.

God is Spirit, not a Spirit, He does not have corporeal limitations. The 3 persons are 1 God.

So what is God, A person or a Spirit? He does not have limitations but a Person and a Spirit are two separate things. So…Is God Spirit or Person?

Earlier you said the Word was God's plan ignoring that the verse says that the Word was God and now you say that the Word is God and you've ignored that the verse says that the Word was with God.

4 But when (3) the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, (4) born of a woman, born (5) under the Law, - Galatians 4:4 NASB

The Word became flesh by being born of a woman, God's Son was already existing, hence God could send His Son who was then born of a woman.

Yes the “Word” (Logos) means to designate the divine reason or plan, which coordinates a
changing universe. (A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C.)

God’s “Word” is God, and God’s “Word” was with God. All things were made by his “Word”. Look up “by” if you have to. It means “Because of for this reason”.

So what I am saying is that the Son was not with God in the Beginning as a separate Person. The bible does not teach that the Son is eternal. The Son was in the beginning with God as the “Word”. The Son or the Flesh of God was a Plan that God has always had. The Son was to be our redeemer. So when the fullness of Time Came God or the “Word” became the Son made of a woman, made under the law. The Son did not become flesh now did it? The Word Became flesh. The Term “Son” refers to the Flesh.” Son” is a term describing man, carrying the connotation of weakness and mortality. (Strongs 5207)

Could God Die? Could God Bleed? Did God need rest? Was this the deity of Christ or were all these things the humanity of Christ?

4 But when (3) the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, (4) born of a woman, born (5) under the Law, - Galatians 4:4 NASB

He was not just born of a woman. The word used in the original text is 1096 ginomai {ghin'-om-ahee}
It means

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

Just wanted to show you that. I’m sorry if its hard for me to use any other version. Don’t get me wrong I don’t thing the KJV is the only bible anyone should read, but I do think its one of the closest we have. So please forgive me.

You've contradicted yourself, is the Son flesh or God incarnate?

Hmmm. in·car·nate Pronunciation Key (n-kärnt)
adj.
a. Invested with bodily nature and form: an incarnate spirit.
b. Embodied in human form; personified: a villain who is evil incarnate.
1. Incarnadine.

tr.v. in·car·nat·ed, in·car·nat·ing, in·car·nates (-nt)
a. To give bodily, especially human, form to.
b. To personify.
1. To realize in action or fact; actualize: a community that incarnates its founders' ideals.

Sorry did not mean to confuse you. The Son is the Father in flesh or human form. What I stated was not a contradiction, just two different ways of saying the same thing.

The Son is the Word who became flesh, not the Father. It is the Son who is both God and man

No the Word became flesh and we know that the Flesh is the only begotten of the Father. Who is the only begotten of the Father? It’s the Son. The Son did not pre-exist, the Word did. The Son was never Eternal. The Word was.

Jesus means "YHVH saves

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Ch3.htm
Here is a Link you can go to for that. I will save that for another topic.

God bless

[ November 13, 2002, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[Dualhunter]

Jesus, the Son of God is the Word of God.

1 (1) In the beginning was (2) the Word, and the Word was (3) with God, and (4) the Word was God. - John 1:1 NASB

The Word was both with God and God.

14 And (18) the Word (19) became flesh, and (20) dwelt among us, and (21) we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of (22) grace and (23) truth. - John 1:14 NASB

It was the Word (i.e. the one who was with God)who became flesh and dwelt among us, not the Father (i.e. the one whom the Word was with). The Word is God who became flesh, of Him the Father said "This is My Son in whom I am well pleased".

 

[ONENESS]

Sorry to have taken so long to reply. We have had "East Coast Conference" this week.

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
Jesus, the Son of God is the Word of God.

1 (1) In the beginning was (2) the Word, and the Word was (3) with God, and (4) the Word was God. - John 1:1 NASB

The Word was both with God and God.

14 And (18) the Word (19) became flesh, and (20) dwelt among us, and (21) we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of (22) grace and (23) truth. - John 1:14 NASB

It was the Word (i.e. the one who was with God)who became flesh and dwelt among us, not the Father (i.e. the one whom the Word was with). The Word is God who became flesh, of Him the Father said "This is My Son in whom I am well pleased".

Jesus, the Son of God is the Word of God.

That is correct. But what you are not seeing is that the “Son of God” had a beginning. The Word became flesh. It tells us that in verse 14 of John in the 1st Chapter. The “Word” is not a separate Person.. I have already shown you why Jesus was called the “Son of God”(Luke 1:35)

The “Son” was not called the “Son” b/c he was a different person than the Father. He was called a Son b/c God caused the Conception. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all relationships to Humanity. Isa 9:6 lets us know that the “Son” would be called “The Everlasting Father”. Jesus Christ is our Father who came in the flesh and manifested himself as the Son of God. He is not a separate Person.

Author David K. Bernard, “The Oneness Of God”
The Father

The term "God the Father" is biblical and refers to God Himself (Galatians 1:1-4). God is the Father; He is not merely Father of the Son, but the Father of all creation (Malachi 2:10; Hebrews 12:9). He is also our Father by reason of the new birth (Romans 8:14-16). The title Father indicates a relationship between God and man, particularly between God and His Son and between God and regenerated man. Jesus taught many times that God is our Father (Matthew 5:16, 45, 48). He taught us to pray, "Our Father which art in heaven" (Matthew 6:9). Of course, Jesus as a man had an additional relationship to God in a sense that no one else has ever had. He was the only begotten Son of the Father (John 3:16), the only One who was actually conceived by the Spirit of God and the only One who had the fulness of God without measure.

The Bible plainly states that there is only one Father (Malachi 2:10; Ephesians 4:6). It also clearly teaches that Jesus is the one Father (Isaiah 9:6; John 10:30). The Spirit that dwelt in the Son of God was none other than the Father.

It is important to note that the name of the Father is Jesus, for this name fully reveals and expresses the Father. In John 5:43, Jesus said, "I am come in my Father's name." According to Hebrews 1:4, the Sori "by inheritance obtained a more excellent name." In other words, the Son inherited His Father's name. We therefore understand why Jesus said that He manifested and declared the Father's name (John 17:6, 26). He fulfilled the Old Testament prophecy that stated the Messiah would declare the name of the LORD (Psalm 22:22; Hebrews 2:12). In what name did the Son come? What name did He obtain from His Father by inheritance? What name did the Son manifest? The answer is apparent. The only name He used was the name of Jesus, His Father's name.

The Word was both with God and God.

Are your thoughts and ideas with you? Are your words with you? Are they separate from you?

Dualhunter…You should read “The Oneness of God” by David K. Bernard. If you want I will even pay for it for you. Its only $11.00. If you don’t mind would you allow me to start cutting and pasting some things out of his book just for quotes? B/c he can put things in to words way better than I can. The Reason I am asking this is b/c I try my best no to post others work. I like to show you what I believe from my own self. Not just something someone else wrote it. But I can assure you that What I post is what I believe. And second a lot of things are being rehashed and I thought “Man Pastor Bernard can put what I believe in words so much better than I can” And maybe you could understand what I am trying to say that I cant find the right words for. You’ve heard it said before; “If I could only say it like I feel it”. And when I read what he says its just that.

 

[Dualhunter]

You're still not getting it.

1. The Word was with God

2. and the Word was God.

Both statements are simultaneously true, you're switching from one to the other taking only one at a time to be true.

This is shown by statements of your such as this one:

"Are your thoughts and ideas with you? Are your words with you? Are they separate from you?"

My thoughts and ideas are not me and I am not my thoughts and ideas.

The Word was with God and the Word was God.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
You're still not getting it.

1. The Word was with God

2. and the Word was God.

Both statements are simultaneously true, you're switching from one to the other taking only one at a time to be true.

This is shown by statements of your such as this one:

"Are your thoughts and ideas with you? Are your words with you? Are they separate from you?"

My thoughts and ideas are not me and I am not my thoughts and ideas.

The Word was with God and the Word was God.

Do you have AOL Instant Messenger? If So I would Love to chat with you via Aim.

Author David K. Bernard "The Oneness of God"

The Word

John 1 beautifully teaches the concept of God manifest in flesh. In the beginning was the Word (Greek, Logos). The Word was not a separate person or a separate god any more than a man's word is a separate person from him. Rather the Word was the thought, plan, or mind of God. The Word was with God in the beginning and actually was God Himself (John 1:1). The Incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. Indeed, in the mind of God the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world (I Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8).

In Greek usage, logos can mean the expression or plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer - as a play in the mind of a playwright - or it can mean the thought as uttered or otherwise physically expressed - as a play that is enacted on stage. John 1 says the Logos existed in the mind of God from the beginning of time. When the fulness of time was come, God put that plan in action. He put flesh on that plan in the form of the man Jesus Christ. The Logos is God expressed. As John Miller says, the Logos is "God uttering Himself." [10] In fact, TAB translates the last phrase of John 1:1 as, "The Word was God Himself." Flanders and Cresson say, "The Word was God's means of self disclosure." [11] This thought is further brought out by verse 14, which says the incarnated Word had the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, and by verse 18, which says that the Son has declared the Father.

In Greek philosophy, the Logos came to mean reason or wisdom as the controlling principle of the universe. In John's day, some Greek philosophers and Jewish theologians influenced by Greek thought (especially the Jewish thinker, Philo of Alexandria) regarded the Logos as an inferior, secondary deity or as an emanation from God in time. [12] Some Christian heresies, including an emerging form of Gnosticism, were already incorporating these theories into their doctrines, and therefore relegating Jesus to an inferior role. John deliberately used their own terminology to refute these doctrines and to declare the truth. The Word was not inferior to God; it was God (John 1:1). The Word did not emanate from God over a period of time; it was with God in the beginning (John 1:1-2). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was none other than the Word, or God, revealed in flesh. Note also that the Greek word pros, translated "with" in verse 1, is the same word translated "pertaining to" in Hebrews 2:17 and 5:1. John 1:1 could include in its meanings, therefore, the following: "The Word pertained to God and the Word was God," or, "The Word belonged to God and was God."

Im sorry for the quotes but I am growing tired of rehashing the same thing.

You either understand it or you dont. I cant make you understand it. The only thing I can do is share it with you.

But really..I would love to chat with you on AIM if you have it. Just let me know.