At least one of us is using our mind, I’m glad you pointed out it is I.
Nice ad hominem attack. Again, rather than engage the issue, you attack the person. Typical KJVO response when backed into a corner. So then you readily admit that your mind is your final authority, rather than the KJV as you claim?
No, the silliest thing is the nature of your thread. The NIV has changed this verse to only apply to male prostitutes and homosexual offenders (gay rapists). Only those who seek to justify such foolishness cannot see this.
The nature of the thread? The threads usually degenerate when the KJVO crowd start attacking people rather than issues, much like you are trying to do. I honestly want to know why I should take what you THINK to be authoritative, rather than someone else, say such as Pastor Larry. His posts are much more respectful, and he engages the issues. Why should I take your opinion formulated in your mind over mine? And by the way, I am very much against homosexuality. So please do not imply that I support it or am trying to justify it in any way, shape, or form. There is no way that the NIV justifies homosexuality.
I am sorry that you do.
I know I should be more specific for those who can’t understand the 4th grade English of the KJB.
First off, I have used the KJV quite extensively for years, so I can't fall into your little category here. I am actually quite fond of the KJV. And for the 4th grade English bit:
That is now the funniest thing I have heard in a KJVO debate!
Alternate readings yes, I mentioned that, how about marginal notes that cast doubt on whole sections of scripture like the woman taken in adultery in John?
So alternate readings do not bother you? So it is okay that the KJV translators let you know that Lucifer really means day star, right? You don't have any problem with that, do you? And how about being truthful. It is a fact that many early manuscripts don't have John 7:53-8:11. Does that mean it is not authentic? No, but they are giving the facts of the situation. I am sorry that you have a problem with fact.
You guys just can’t get it can you. I do not have a dozen renderings to choose from, you do. Get it. I doubt it.
Actually, no I don't get it. My point I am making has nothing to do about variations and such. I will state my point clearly for you, as I have over and over in this thread: WHY SHOULD A KJVO HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE HIS BRAIN TO DECIDE ON THE KJV AND A MVER NOT HAVE THAT SAME RIGHT? WHY IS THE KJVO POSITION OKAY TO CHOOSE BUT I CAN'T CHOOSE A MV? ISN'T A KJVO USING HIS OWN MIND AS HIS FINAL AUTHORITY TO COME TO THE CONLUSION OF KJVO? WHY IS A MVER ACCUSED OF PUTTING HIMSELF ABOVE GOD WHEN HE DOES THE SAME THING A KJVO HAS DONE BUT HAS ARRIVED AT A DIFFERENT CONCLUSION? WHY IS A KJVO ANY MORE RIGHT THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT LED HIM TO HIS DECISION THAN A MVER WHO SAYS THE HOLY SPIRIT LED HIM TO HIS POSITION?
See, I am not even talking of variations and underlying text. I am talking of the double standard employed by the KJVO crowd. By what authority have you arrived at your decision and why should that be binding on me?
These thousands of changes are an obvious perversion, and you are part of the problem.
The KJVO crowd are the ones that raise a big fuss over some very good, conservative translations. If you want to use the KJV alone, go right ahead. I have no problem with that. However, when you start putting down other good versions and telling others they have to follow YOUR conclusion that you have arrived at using YOUR own mind, then I have a big problem. Why is your conclusion right?
How am I part of the problem? I am not a translator, so how am I a part of the problem? Sue me, I want God's Word in the hands of the common man and for him to understand it.
Most all MVs are from a different family of texts, come from a faithless form of textual criticism, and very subjective forms of interpretation. The KJV is completely unique and is the antithesis of this.
Okay, but you are still left with the NKJV, MKJV, and LITV. They are from the same text as the KJV. What is your problem with that? And before you start slinging false accusations, the NKJV has been discussed and shown to clearly be based on the TR. And oh yeah, the KJV has no interpretation of the translators, like say, baptize? After all, they were Anglicans who sprinkled, and they couldn't translate it as immerse, so to solve that problem they just transliterated and created a new word. Hmmm....
See you at the judgment seat.
Cute.
God chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. People come to Christ by the hearing of his word, not some of your intellectual mumbo jumbo. If you think your wise in this word you had better become a fool that you might become wise.
So we are supposed to be bad stewards with the minds gave us? We are supposed to be braindead? We are not supposed to engage those who try to discredit Christianity?
These modern versions with all their variant readings are of the Devil, and those who cannot see this are deceived by Satan.
But why? Please prove this audacious claim. Please show me why your OPINION is any more valid than mine.
That’s exactly what you want isn’t it, the facts, but you want your facts. Everybody has got facts darling.
I hope you are a woman. If not, I have to wonder if you have been confused by the KJV's renderings of passages that deal with homosexuality.
By their fruits ye shall know them. I guess you would have asked Christ if he knew them personally?
My friend, you are nowhere near the same stature as Christ, as all us men are not. No, I would not have asked Christ. He is God. You are not. So do you know them? You make some rather slanderous claims against individuals you don't know. How do you know how godly some of the men are? Following your logic, I have heard of KJVO pastors who are prideful, involved in fornication, and all other kinds of sin. Many KJVOs I have run into are very hateful in their speech and mean towards others. So using your subjective standard, the KJVO position is clearly not right.
You’re the one who doesn’t understand simple English. If you have 50 MVs with variant readings, you must decide which is right. Get it. I read the KJB and believe it.
Okay, I will make this slow for you: YOU HAVE USED YOUR MIND TO COME TO A CHOICE OF A READING. YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO FOLLOW THE KJV. OUT OF A TOTAL OF 51 BIBLES YOU HAVE CHOSEN ONE TO FOLLOW. WHY IS THAT ANY DIFFERENT THAN SOMEONE WHO CHOOSES TO FOLLOW THE NASB?
Unlike many I have compared and decided not to make my mind the final authority. Yes, I know, I used my mind to make this decision, yes I get your subtle twist to distort the truth.
My friend, there is no subtle twisting. I am being blunt and very blatant. You have just created a contradiction. You decided (using your mind you made a final choice) not to make your mind your final authority (but you just used your mind to make this final decision, so you cancel out this decision).
I will say it again, if you have 50 MVs with variant readings, your mind is your own final authority as to which is correct. That is the sense in which this assertion was originally made by the KJBOs.
And I will say it again, you throw in the KJV, and using you mind you have just decided to follow the 51st variant reading. No difference.
I can tell you what authority you should use, your own. You are your own authority aren’t you. I cannot prove my position, and you sure can’t prove yours. We will know when we meet God, for He is the final authority.
Huh? I have nothing to prove, it is just common sense. The KJVOs have created a double standard, not me. The burden of proof is on the KJVO crowd, not me. You are the one that says a person who chooses a MV is putting their mind above God and yet a KJVO that makes a decision to use the KJV alone is not. You have to prove why it is okay for one to choose and the other can't. If you can't prove it, then stop using the double standard and false argument. And yes, I absolutely agree that God is the final authority.
Neal
[ March 28, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]
