Perseverance of the Saints

Brother James,

Colossians 1:23(NIV)
"if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."

In Colossians 1 I believe Paul is using an exageration to make a point - that the Gospel is very clear. We know that not everyone on the planet had heard - maybe everyone in the known world at that time - but even that is suspect.

But lets just say for sake of conversation that the Gospel really had reached everyone in the world, did Paul say "Now I can stop" or "Now you should stop" preaching the Gospel.

The Gospel is to be preached unto the ends of the earth until our Lord returns.

While I believe in unconditional election, and I believe that those who believe in conditional election are in error, it is not critical error.

What is crital error is to say you do not have to accept Christ as your Savior to be saved.

Please address the passages I pointed out like Romans 10:9-10 and explain to me your understanding of them.

I look forward to your response.

Thanks

IFBReformer

 

Preach,

Here is one website where I got a lot of info.

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2002i/wilkin.html

Still looking forward to your response.

IFBReformer

 

Preach,

Let me first start off by saying that I do not necessarily endorse all the views of those who hold to the doctrine of eternal security.


Colossians 1:22-23(NIV)
"22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."

1 John 2:19(NIV)
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

I agree that if a person renounces faith in Jesus Christ and becomes an believer he proves he was never a believer to begin with. But renouncing your faith in Christ and living a certain lifestyle and doing certain works do not necessarily accompany true salvation. This is the crux of the matter.

As far as Colossians 1:22-23 goes, I see nothing in this passage that says we are saved, being saved, will be saved.

What does Paul mean when he wrote under the inspiration of God "if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."?

I believe he meant exactly what he said - that we must(and will if we are the elect) continue in our faith(trusting in Christ for our salvation) and not do not loose our "hope held out in the gospel". What is the hope of the Gospel? That one day we will stand glorified with Christ because of his sacrifice on the cross.

But this does not mean we are "being saved" - we are saved the moment we accept Christ as Savior and are indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

As far as the verses I mentioned:

Ephesians 1:11-14(NIV)

"11In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."

Ephesians 1 puts together many doctrines taught in the scriptures into one simple consise summary:

1. Unconditional Election
"we were also chosen,having been predestined"
We were chosen and predestined to be saved.

2.Point of Salvation
We were "included in Christ"(saved, part of the body of Christ) when we "heard the word of truth...Having believed" and "Having believed.. we were "marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit"(we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit when we believe) and then he says the Holy Spirit is our "deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession" The redemption he speaks of he when he comes back and gives us glorified bodies.

But notice the past tense and finality of the phrases "included"(past tense), "believed"(past tense),"marked"(past tense). I am not "being saved". I was saved - "included in Christ" when I "believed" and I was "marked" with the Holy Spirit who is my guarentee of future glory.

How do you blend your theory of "saved, being saved, will be saved" with Ephesians chapter 1?

I believe this "saved, being saved,and will be saved" theory rips out the assurance of our salvation. It makes salvation a 'fluid' experiance as opposed to a solid one.

Let me give you an example to illustrate how I believe the Bible teaches salvation:

When I trust in Christ as my Lord(God) and Savior I am born in the family of God, I am now a son. I can choose to build on that relationship - how close I want to walk with my new Father. The closer I walk the better and more rich my life will be. I may not choose at all to develop my relationship - but I am still his son.

Thinking of my own sons - they were born into my family and they acknowledge me as their father, but they do not always obey me. Sometimes we are closer and sometimes we are not because they are stubborn and do not want to change. But how close our relationship is does not determine whether they are my sons or not. They will always be my sons.

This how it is with us as Christians.

Some more things to think about.

IFBReformer

[ April 04, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]

 

IFBR, as I stated in my earlier post, maybe not very clearly, so I apologize, we believe that this scripture has to do with timely salvation, not eternal salvation.

I would like to pose a question to you, if you do hold by the belief that one has to believe and call out on the name of the Lord to be eternally saved, how would you explain the salvation of any person before Christ came here? Was Moses saved, or David, or Abraham, or Noah? BTW, David is a good example of someone who lost their timely salvation.

I think that a good parallel would be the punishment of Moses. Because he smote the rock, instead of speaking to it as the Lord had commanded, he could not enter into the promised land here on earth. He knowingly disobeyed the Lord, but he did not lose his eternal salvation, but he was disallowed his earthly reward; i.e. the land flowing with milk and honey. Also, I think we can see that, even though Moses disobeyed God, God still loved him because the rock still brought forth water.

God Bless you in your studies. Bro. James </font>[/QUOTE]Brother James,

This is an excellant point you bring up and in another thread I will address it further when it comes to Dispensational Theology(which I disagree with).

But moving on to the point at hand:

The elect(Adam, Moses, David, ect...) were always saved by grace through faith. Hebrews 11 and other New Testament passages make this very clear. However, they were only responsible for what God has revealed at any given point in time.

Hebrews 11:13 & 39-40(NIV)
"13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance...39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

Now lets zoom on the phrase "they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance"

When you see something from a distance you cannot make out all the details right? They were only responsible for what they could see.

So no, Abraham did not call on the "Jesus the Christ" by name but yet he saw the Messiah from a distance as Christ said of him to the Pharisees "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.""(John 8:56 NIV).

But now we are responsible to call on the name of "Jesus Christ" because as Peter stated "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."(Acts 4:12 NIV)

We do not see from a distance as the saints of old did, we can see clearly now that as Paul wrote "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."(Romans 10:9 NIV)

One Must accept Jesus Christ by name as his Savior to be saved.

How do you see Romans 10:9-10 saying something different? How could someone be saved without accepting Jesus Christ as Savior by Name?

Looking forward to you response.

IFBReformer

 

Daniel,

I do not ever see the terminology of "will be saved" and "being saved" in the scriptures. This
makes salvation look like a process(like Roman Catholics think it is a process).

Salvation is a one moment in time event. I was eternally saved when I was 7 years old and accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior. Now I understand years later that the Holy Spirit regenerated me so I could accept Christ and see my sinful state.

When I accepted Christ I was sealed with Holy Spirit who was my downpayment of future glory with Christ.

Here is my view of the tree phrases you mention from Colossians 1:

1.Saved
2.He will be present me blameless because
he will make me blameless(not because I became blameless in this corruptiable body).
3.He will confirm me to the end(make me continue
in my faith in Christ).

IFBReformer

 

I should be more specific. I am using "saved" in its broadest sense. Specifically, it is this:

1. Righteous
2. Becoming righteous
3. Will be righteous

As far as "saved" goes, first and foremost, believers are saved from God's wrath. His wrath is aimed at sin. I hope that clears things up. </font>[/QUOTE]Daniel,

I think your terminology here is much better and I would only clearify it slightly:

1. Righteous(positionally righteous - eternally saved)
2. Becoming righteous(MIGHT become less sinful in this life if I choose to build on foundation establised in point 1.)
3. Will be righteous(permanently righteous - in a glorified perfect body)

IFBReformer

 

I should be more specific. I am using "saved" in its broadest sense. Specifically, it is this:

1. Righteous
2. Becoming righteous
3. Will be righteous

As far as "saved" goes, first and foremost, believers are saved from God's wrath. His wrath is aimed at sin. I hope that clears things up. </font>[/QUOTE]Daniel,

Here is a good analogy(at least I think) of how I see salvation:

I am taking my final exam for highschool:

The exam has one question - (In our case will you accept Christ as your Savior?)

If I answer write(I accept Christ) I will receive the passing grade and graduate(eternal life - future glorified body)

But there are extra credit questions(righteous living here and now) on the test as well - if I answer those right I will receive special honors when I graduate - but regardless if I answer the one important question right I will graduate.

So I answer right(accept Christ as Savior) answer two of the three bonus questions(live a righteous life here and now) and will graduate(be given my glofied body and reign with Christ) with honors(rewards for righteous living here and now) in few weeks(at the end of my life)

IFBReformer