Perseverance of the Saints

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
Well, I thought that Bro. Glen's response would suffice, but I guess not. Here is my attempt to explain, in my ignorance as a sinner, what Primitive Baptists believe about this. We believe there is an eternal salvation, as well as a timely salvation.

A child of God can never lose his eternal salvation, as he has been secured through the blood of Christ and God's faith in that work.

A child can lose their timely salvation, however. This is done by turning away from the truth of scripture, after you have been regenerated. For instance, I believe that, the better Christians we become and the less sinful lives we lead, if God has called us into the light of His word, then we will be living our timely salvation. That is the joy we have while on earth to praise and worship God. It gives us the hope of salvation in our hearts and minds, and it makes our actions pleasing to the site of God.

Now, you can lose that timely salvation. I know many people that this has happened to. When the truth is revealed to you, you are supposed to come and join the church; this is also part of the joy of timely salvation. If you, let's say, get a divorce and start running around with women and such, if you become happy in that, you have lost your timely salvation; that is, God has taken away the knowledge and understanding of His truth from you. This, I believe, has to do with our works.

In regard to missions, this is where I stand on the so-called Great Commission:

Mark 16:
14. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Colossians 1:
23. If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

That, to me, shows that the commission given to the apostles was carried out and completed.

BTW, IFBReformer, I am so glad that we can discuss this in a civil manner. I have been attcked many times for stating what I believe. It's good to see someone conducting themselves in a Christian manner on this board. Thank you.

God Bless. Bro. James

Brother James,

Colossians 1:23(NIV)
"if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."

In Colossians 1 I believe Paul is using an exageration to make a point - that the Gospel is very clear. We know that not everyone on the planet had heard - maybe everyone in the known world at that time - but even that is suspect.

But lets just say for sake of conversation that the Gospel really had reached everyone in the world, did Paul say "Now I can stop" or "Now you should stop" preaching the Gospel.

The Gospel is to be preached unto the ends of the earth until our Lord returns.

While I believe in unconditional election, and I believe that those who believe in conditional election are in error, it is not critical error.

What is crital error is to say you do not have to accept Christ as your Savior to be saved.

Please address the passages I pointed out like Romans 10:9-10 and explain to me your understanding of them.

I look forward to your response.

Thanks

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Preach the Word:
IFBreformer, where did you get the summary of the means of salvation view of perseverance?

I will respond after you do.

Preach,

Here is one website where I got a lot of info.

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2002i/wilkin.html

Still looking forward to your response.

IFBReformer

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by IfbReformer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Preach the Word:
IFBreformer, where did you get the summary of the means of salvation view of perseverance?

I will respond after you do.

Preach,

Here is one website where I got a lot of info.

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2002i/wilkin.html

Still looking forward to your response.

IFBReformer </font>[/QUOTE]I knew it! I thought you were going to say that.

Alright, I am cracking my knuckles and will post right after I eat dinner. This is important, but so is dinner.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Romans 10:9-10(NIV)
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

IFBR, as I stated in my earlier post, maybe not very clearly, so I apologize, we believe that this scripture has to do with timely salvation, not eternal salvation.

I would like to pose a question to you, if you do hold by the belief that one has to believe and call out on the name of the Lord to be eternally saved, how would you explain the salvation of any person before Christ came here? Was Moses saved, or David, or Abraham, or Noah? BTW, David is a good example of someone who lost their timely salvation.

I think that a good parallel would be the punishment of Moses. Because he smote the rock, instead of speaking to it as the Lord had commanded, he could not enter into the promised land here on earth. He knowingly disobeyed the Lord, but he did not lose his eternal salvation, but he was disallowed his earthly reward; i.e. the land flowing with milk and honey. Also, I think we can see that, even though Moses disobeyed God, God still loved him because the rock still brought forth water.

God Bless you in your studies. Bro. James

 

[Daniel David]

Without going in to alot of detail, I think the loss of rewards view is the weakest of the five. It is riddled with problems.

Now, here is a quote from Charles Stanley: "Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy."

Is this what you believe? I hope not. What would you do with 1 John 2:19?

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."

Do you see the problem right away? If they were really of us, they would continue. Since they left, they demonstrated that they were really lost.

 

[Daniel David]

IMHBAO, the following is what I believe to have the strongest argument:

1. Means of salvation.
2. Reformed (Lordship salvation)
3. Loss of salvation
4. Loss of rewards
5. Hypothetical

1. This clearly has the strongest arguments.
2. This has problems but overall is strong.
3. This has all kinds of problems.
4. This seeks to change the focus to deal with its many problems.
5. This has absolutely no force if warnings are hypothetical.

 

[tyndale1946]

PTW said... Now, here is a quote from Charles Stanley: "Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy."

Is this what you believe? I hope not. What would you do with 1 John 2:19?

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."

Acoording to what you said PTW... The belief is what secures you in Christ... If a person was a believer... Then becomes a non believer... Does his belief in the first place cancel out his non belief later?... You are speaking in an eternal salvation sense are you not?... If you are then NONE can believe... what are you going to do with Romans 11:32... Where both Jews and Gentiles are concluded in unbelief that God might have mercy on all... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Acoording to what you said PTW... The belief is what secures you in Christ... If a person was a believer... Then becomes a non believer... Does his belief in the first place cancel out his non belief later?... You are speaking in an eternal salvation sense are you not?... If you are then NONE can believe... what are you going to do with Romans 11:32... Where both Jews and Gentiles are concluded in unbelief that God might have mercy on all... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

Glen, I would like to encourage you to write using paragraphs. It sure does make it easier to follow what you are talking about.

First of all, a true believer will NOT stop believing. That should answer the rest.

In Romans 11:32, Paul summarized all that he had said. All people (Jews and Gentiles) are condemned. Since God has condemned all people, he can show mercy to all people (Jews and Gentiles).

How exactly was that a problem?

 

[Daniel David]

Consider this passage:

Colossians 1:21-23
And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven,, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

In this one passage, you see all three time frames of salvation: saved, being saved, will be saved.

Finally, please elaborate on the verses you mentioned. Why do you think they disprove my view?

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Preach the Word:
Consider this passage:

Colossians 1:21-23
And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven,, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

In this one passage, you see all three time frames of salvation: saved, being saved, will be saved.

Finally, please elaborate on the verses you mentioned. Why do you think they disprove my view?

Preach,

Let me first start off by saying that I do not necessarily endorse all the views of those who hold to the doctrine of eternal security.


Colossians 1:22-23(NIV)
"22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."

1 John 2:19(NIV)
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

I agree that if a person renounces faith in Jesus Christ and becomes an believer he proves he was never a believer to begin with. But renouncing your faith in Christ and living a certain lifestyle and doing certain works do not necessarily accompany true salvation. This is the crux of the matter.

As far as Colossians 1:22-23 goes, I see nothing in this passage that says we are saved, being saved, will be saved.

What does Paul mean when he wrote under the inspiration of God "if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."?

I believe he meant exactly what he said - that we must(and will if we are the elect) continue in our faith(trusting in Christ for our salvation) and not do not loose our "hope held out in the gospel". What is the hope of the Gospel? That one day we will stand glorified with Christ because of his sacrifice on the cross.

But this does not mean we are "being saved" - we are saved the moment we accept Christ as Savior and are indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

As far as the verses I mentioned:

Ephesians 1:11-14(NIV)

"11In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."

Ephesians 1 puts together many doctrines taught in the scriptures into one simple consise summary:

1. Unconditional Election
"we were also chosen,having been predestined"
We were chosen and predestined to be saved.

2.Point of Salvation
We were "included in Christ"(saved, part of the body of Christ) when we "heard the word of truth...Having believed" and "Having believed.. we were "marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit"(we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit when we believe) and then he says the Holy Spirit is our "deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession" The redemption he speaks of he when he comes back and gives us glorified bodies.

But notice the past tense and finality of the phrases "included"(past tense), "believed"(past tense),"marked"(past tense). I am not "being saved". I was saved - "included in Christ" when I "believed" and I was "marked" with the Holy Spirit who is my guarentee of future glory.

How do you blend your theory of "saved, being saved, will be saved" with Ephesians chapter 1?

I believe this "saved, being saved,and will be saved" theory rips out the assurance of our salvation. It makes salvation a 'fluid' experiance as opposed to a solid one.

Let me give you an example to illustrate how I believe the Bible teaches salvation:

When I trust in Christ as my Lord(God) and Savior I am born in the family of God, I am now a son. I can choose to build on that relationship - how close I want to walk with my new Father. The closer I walk the better and more rich my life will be. I may not choose at all to develop my relationship - but I am still his son.

Thinking of my own sons - they were born into my family and they acknowledge me as their father, but they do not always obey me. Sometimes we are closer and sometimes we are not because they are stubborn and do not want to change. But how close our relationship is does not determine whether they are my sons or not. They will always be my sons.

This how it is with us as Christians.

Some more things to think about.

IFBReformer

[ April 04, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Romans 10:9-10(NIV)
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

IFBR, as I stated in my earlier post, maybe not very clearly, so I apologize, we believe that this scripture has to do with timely salvation, not eternal salvation.

I would like to pose a question to you, if you do hold by the belief that one has to believe and call out on the name of the Lord to be eternally saved, how would you explain the salvation of any person before Christ came here? Was Moses saved, or David, or Abraham, or Noah? BTW, David is a good example of someone who lost their timely salvation.

I think that a good parallel would be the punishment of Moses. Because he smote the rock, instead of speaking to it as the Lord had commanded, he could not enter into the promised land here on earth. He knowingly disobeyed the Lord, but he did not lose his eternal salvation, but he was disallowed his earthly reward; i.e. the land flowing with milk and honey. Also, I think we can see that, even though Moses disobeyed God, God still loved him because the rock still brought forth water.

God Bless you in your studies. Bro. James

</font>[/QUOTE]Brother James,

This is an excellant point you bring up and in another thread I will address it further when it comes to Dispensational Theology(which I disagree with).

But moving on to the point at hand:

The elect(Adam, Moses, David, ect...) were always saved by grace through faith. Hebrews 11 and other New Testament passages make this very clear. However, they were only responsible for what God has revealed at any given point in time.

Hebrews 11:13 & 39-40(NIV)
"13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance...39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

Now lets zoom on the phrase "they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance"

When you see something from a distance you cannot make out all the details right? They were only responsible for what they could see.

So no, Abraham did not call on the "Jesus the Christ" by name but yet he saw the Messiah from a distance as Christ said of him to the Pharisees "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.""(John 8:56 NIV).

But now we are responsible to call on the name of "Jesus Christ" because as Peter stated "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."(Acts 4:12 NIV)

We do not see from a distance as the saints of old did, we can see clearly now that as Paul wrote "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."(Romans 10:9 NIV)

One Must accept Jesus Christ by name as his Savior to be saved.

How do you see Romans 10:9-10 saying something different? How could someone be saved without accepting Jesus Christ as Savior by Name?

Looking forward to you response.

IFBReformer

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Please read, or re-read, my earlier post. We believe there are two aspects of salvation. One being we were secured in Christ before the world was for eternal salvation. The other being timely salvation where "if you confess with your mouth" etc. We hold this as being a temporal salvation where we shall reap good rewards here on earth for obeying and following after Christ.

These rewards, not necessarily earthly rewards, but rewards such as the knowledge and understanding of what Christ did for us on the cross. We do NOT hold this to be in an eternal sense dealing with our eternal security. I don't know how better to explain it. Chalk it up to my being a sinner.

I still don't understand how some can have one salvation and some can have another. Either Jesus' blood was shed for all of his children, or it was shed for none.

Also, I think we both can see that we aren't getting anywhere, so why don't we leave it at that. I get the feeling that the discussion, not necessarily between IFBReformer and myself, is turning from being fruitful discussion of scriptures to attacks on someone's beliefs. The day we all agree on everything in the scriptures is the day that the world has ended and he have ascended to heaven. Let's all just agree to disagree and be done with it.

May God grant each and every one of His children a better understanding of His precious word.

God Bless. Bro. James

 

[Daniel David]

1. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death,

2. in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -

3. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast,

1. Saved.

2. Will be saved.

3. Being saved.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Preach the Word:
1. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death,

2. in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -

3. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast,

1. Saved.

2. Will be saved.

3. Being saved.

1. Saved from what?
2. Will be saved from what?
3. Being saved from what?

Actually I am primarily interested in what I am already saved from. I hope you aren't going to say from my past sins beacuse that would do me very little good because since then there have been others and I strongly suspect there will be more.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
1. Saved from what?
2. Will be saved from what?
3. Being saved from what?

Actually I am primarily interested in what I am already saved from. I hope you aren't going to say from my past sins beacuse that would do me very little good because since then there have been others and I strongly suspect there will be more.

I should be more specific. I am using "saved" in its broadest sense. Specifically, it is this:

1. Righteous
2. Becoming righteous
3. Will be righteous

As far as "saved" goes, first and foremost, believers are saved from God's wrath. His wrath is aimed at sin. I hope that clears things up.

 

[Daniel David]

bump

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Daniel:
1. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death,

2. in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -

3. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast,

1. Saved.

2. Will be saved.

3. Being saved.

Daniel,

I do not ever see the terminology of "will be saved" and "being saved" in the scriptures. This
makes salvation look like a process(like Roman Catholics think it is a process).

Salvation is a one moment in time event. I was eternally saved when I was 7 years old and accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior. Now I understand years later that the Holy Spirit regenerated me so I could accept Christ and see my sinful state.

When I accepted Christ I was sealed with Holy Spirit who was my downpayment of future glory with Christ.

Here is my view of the tree phrases you mention from Colossians 1:

1.Saved
2.He will be present me blameless because
he will make me blameless(not because I became blameless in this corruptiable body).
3.He will confirm me to the end(make me continue
in my faith in Christ).

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Preach the Word:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Artimaeus:
1. Saved from what?
2. Will be saved from what?
3. Being saved from what?

Actually I am primarily interested in what I am already saved from. I hope you aren't going to say from my past sins beacuse that would do me very little good because since then there have been others and I strongly suspect there will be more.

I should be more specific. I am using "saved" in its broadest sense. Specifically, it is this:

1. Righteous
2. Becoming righteous
3. Will be righteous

As far as "saved" goes, first and foremost, believers are saved from God's wrath. His wrath is aimed at sin. I hope that clears things up. </font>[/QUOTE]Daniel,

I think your terminology here is much better and I would only clearify it slightly:

1. Righteous(positionally righteous - eternally saved)
2. Becoming righteous(MIGHT become less sinful in this life if I choose to build on foundation establised in point 1.)
3. Will be righteous(permanently righteous - in a glorified perfect body)

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Preach the Word:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Artimaeus:
1. Saved from what?
2. Will be saved from what?
3. Being saved from what?

Actually I am primarily interested in what I am already saved from. I hope you aren't going to say from my past sins beacuse that would do me very little good because since then there have been others and I strongly suspect there will be more.

I should be more specific. I am using "saved" in its broadest sense. Specifically, it is this:

1. Righteous
2. Becoming righteous
3. Will be righteous

As far as "saved" goes, first and foremost, believers are saved from God's wrath. His wrath is aimed at sin. I hope that clears things up. </font>[/QUOTE]Daniel,

Here is a good analogy(at least I think) of how I see salvation:

I am taking my final exam for highschool:

The exam has one question - (In our case will you accept Christ as your Savior?)

If I answer write(I accept Christ) I will receive the passing grade and graduate(eternal life - future glorified body)

But there are extra credit questions(righteous living here and now) on the test as well - if I answer those right I will receive special honors when I graduate - but regardless if I answer the one important question right I will graduate.

So I answer right(accept Christ as Savior) answer two of the three bonus questions(live a righteous life here and now) and will graduate(be given my glofied body and reign with Christ) with honors(rewards for righteous living here and now) in few weeks(at the end of my life)

IFBReformer

 

[russell55]

I think your terminology here is much better and I would only clearify it slightly:

Except that the scripture uses the terminology "saved" and "salvation" exactly as Daniel did... Why is some other terminology better than that used by scripture?

Salvation means we are delivered from God's wrath, but we are delived from God's wrath by also being delivered from the rule of sin. Even though in a real way we have already received salvation, there is a "not yet" aspect to it as well:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12,13)

The salvation worked out here is the result of God's continuing inner work in the life of the believer. It is something that is happening and continues throughout our lifetime, and something we are exhorted to cooperate in.

...so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Hebrews 9:28)

When Christ returns the second time, the process of salvation will be completed. There is a real sense in which our salvation is the purpose of the His second coming as much as it was the purpose of His first coming. That's when we will experience our salvation in it's fulness.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead...

We were saved.....

to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith....

We are being saved....

for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We will be saved....