-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Music in Latin and such...
- Thread starter ScottEmerson
- Start date
Good grief! This is nothing like the "praise and worship" of modern times, and certainly nothing like the goings on in a charismatic service. Even if it were, the Jewish forms are done away with.
What of the incense? Priestly garments? The furniture of the Temples? etc.? If one part is answered, then it is all answered, for He who said to "clap your hands" also said "bring a sin offering."
Who are you to say who the burden belongs to? First, it was you who invoked the Psalms to justify the ecstatic expressions employed in charismatic/CCM circles. I merely exposed the discontinuity of your reasoning.
The burden is on you to show these forms "approved."
But to answer your challenge, the Psalms were given to the same people to whom Leviticus was given--the Jews under the Law. Now that these things were written to infants in ignorance and superstition is plain by explicit passages such as (Yod, you should take note of this) Gal. 3:24-25 and 4:1-5.
That doesn't mean Leviticus or the Psalms are abandoned, but understood in their true spiritual sense. All Scripture is...profitable...for instruction in righteousness... What is Deut. 22:11 really teaching us?
Aside: BTW, if you think the lessons taught by the Tabernacle, Priesthood and the Offerings are exhausted by the mere knowledge that Someone would die for our sins, then you really don't understand any of their lessons.
It is a fact that the Church in the first centuries of Christianity shunned the use of musical instruments altogether. What? Didn't they read the Psalms?
Now that it is established that Israel under the Law was an infant, and that the instruction they received winked at their ignorance and superstition, and that the Early Church abandoned Jewish forms, it remains only to cite St. Paul to show that even babes in Christ, are yet carnal, and that his exhortations are always to grow up and put away childish things.
1 Cor. 3:1, 3:3, 13:11
Heb. 5:10-6:3
[ August 14, 2003, 01:57 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
Well thanks because that is exactly what I do...
...the psalms to jewish melodies sung in Hebrew (and English so the tongue is interpreted)
I'm so glad that you approve but I don't really think I have the market on worship cornered. Different cultures should be free to worship God in their cultural context. That was the whole purpose for the Jerusalem church's decision in Acts 15.
It's hard for me to argue with the fruit I've seen and the reports I have heard of people whose lives were changed through just learning how to humble themselves in worship.
I've seen entire Baptist churches dancing (which must prove that I am apostate,right?
) I've brought instruments onto the stage of Church of Christ and we sang as One (egads! )! I've seen people in a Catholic church get born again during the worship (what is he doing in a catholic church???) I once led a Romanian politician to the Lord by praising God in the city square of Timisoara and letting the Holy Spirit do ALL the work except the final prayer. In that same city square I led an Iranian muslim to the Lord by singing praise and answering a few basic questions. We signed him into the local Bible school that day and he went on to be a missionary! I've seen Ehud Olmert (while the mayor of Jerusalem) weep as I sang Zech 9 to him.
Worship is an international language when we can allow others to be themselves.
You said something about the way the people of the book worshipped being some kind of fanatical mumbo jumbo but the Lord never rebuked their form of worship...it was established in His Word not only in the Psalms but in lots of other Books of the Bible.
The only time their worship was rebuked was when their hearts attitude was not focused on Him.
So are you saying that anyone who moves while saying "hallelujah" has a wrong heart attitude? Is it OK to clap?
I really just don't understand how you can have that position.
</font>[/QUOTE]Let me share a recent email with you from a charismatic aquaintance of mine:You can see by his writing style that his education isn't so good, but what I notice about him, you, and Scott, is that when you've lost the debate about the Scripturality of an issue, you begin to brace your positions with personal experiences, which are dubious at best because I cannot examine them to prove the real effects of your methods. Everyone--Everyone--that I know personally and can follow up on who tells me these incredible stories of "the spirit falling" in charismatic or CCM events have embellished their stories, and the spiritual lives of those who've received "blessings" are little more than stagnant.
Since you want to talk about personal experiences, let me tell you about a small Pentecostal church that God awakened some 15 years ago. Some in that church began to put the Scriptures above the "prophecies" and "tongues" that were given. In the mid-90's, though the sign still says Pentecostal, they adopted the Apostles' Creed as their statement of faith, and the Church Covenant so common to Baptists as their Covenant. Attention was given to reading, to exhortation, and especially to doctrine.
What happened? Did the numbers in this church grow? No, they've dwindled to about twenty or so faithful attendants. But this is what we are to expect in the last days:
So let's stick to the the Scriptures and see if these methods are indeed true and spiritual, and your treatment of Acts 15 missed the mark—wasn't even close.
No, but I'll let YOU do it! Latin is so tied to English (or rightly, the other way around) that we can often look at sentences and understand the gist of it -
Ecce = Behold (like ecco homo - behold the man)
quam
bonum = good (like bon ami - good friend)
et
quam
decorum = suitable, proper (same in English)
habitare = live (habitat)
fratres = brothers (fraternal)
in
uno = one (uno
sicut
unguentum = ointment
optimum = best (optimal)
in
capite = head (cap)
quod
descendit = going down (descend)
in
barbam
barbam
Aaron = Aaron
quod
descendit = going down (descend)
super
oram
vestimentorum = clothing (vestment)
eius
sicut
ros
Hermon = Hermon
qui
descendit = going down (descend)
super
montana = mountain
Sion = Zion
quoniam
ibi
mandavit
Dominus = Lord
benedictionem = blessing (benediction)
vitam = life (vitality)
usque
in
aeternum = eternity
ScottEmerson
Active Member
You asked where in the psalms. I showed you.
What of the incense? Priestly garments? The furniture of the Temples? etc.? If one part is answered, then it is all answered, for He who said to "clap your hands" also said "bring a sin offering."
Things of the priests are also answered quite well. There is silence where it comes to clapping hands, so why speak where Scripture is silent?
Who are you to say who the burden belongs to? First, it was you who invoked the Psalms to justify the ecstatic expressions employed in charismatic/CCM circles. I merely exposed the discontinuity of your reasoning.</font>[/QUOTE]Rules of debate. If you wish to make a statement such as you did, then you must back it up with some proof.
Because of the liberty that is given us in Christ, I do believe you must show that saying "Glory to God" and clapping is sinful. If you cannot, then we must conclude that it is not sinful.
And what you fail to see is that the nowhere do we see that the expression of worship has changed in the New Covenant. It's simply not there. The law has been replaced by Christ. But worship? No difference. To say otherwise is to add to Scripture, which the Bible warns against.
We can also examine this from a different perspective. Musical instruments are only mentioned in the law where a trumpet is sounded (such as Leviticus 25:9) - and this wasn't for musical intent. The use of instruments in worship was something the Israelites did on their own -- thus, God never condemned the use of such things in the context of proper worship. Instruments were not in the law, so it cannot be part of the ritual law that you are trying to argue away.
http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/musical_instruments.html
Do you have evidence to support your claim, or are you just trying to make an argument from silence?
Even if they were not used by the church fathers for whatever reason, many things that are done by the church now were not done during their time. Without a specific prohibition, we cannot call it sinful.
I just read a great argument against your position. The OT talks about giving a tithe. The NT is silent. By your logic, we may give 9% or 11%, but to give 10% is an obvious sin. In the same way there is no prohibition or even any negativity toward the use of instruments in worship.
It is a fact that the Church in the first centuries of Christianity shunned the use of musical instruments altogether. What? Didn't they read the Psalms?
Where did you get that "fact"?
The ORIGINAL church was completely jewish. Music is as important as bread in their culture. If there weren't instruments then it was only because no one in that town could afford one.
Now that it is established that Israel under the Law was an infant, and that the instruction they received winked at their ignorance and superstition, and that the Early Church abandoned Jewish forms,
Where was this established? I don't see this anywhere in the Book except concerning the purpose for the sacrificial laws. You can't just insinuate something and expect us to take it as fact.
it remains only to cite St. Paul to show that even babes in Christ, are yet carnal, and that his exhortations are always to grow up and put away childish things.
It is a gross mis-interpretation to envoke the "love" chapter and apply it to music in the modern world.
If anything, this verse is speaks to our attitude towards people that we don't understand. Even IF you have all knowledge, love toward others is more important.
I don't see any love in your responses to anyone, Aaron....much less patience or kindness. Instead of twisting a few verses out of context you should be twisting yourself to fit the verses.
Let's look at what precedes your "proof text"
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking , it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
1 Corinthians 3
Paul is rebuking these carnal christians because they are choosing between him and Apollos. No where does it say anything about any style of music being "worldly" but he does go on to say this;
I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
And Hebrews 5 & 6?
C'mon...you can't really be serious? Are you equating modern worship music with "the unrighteous act of crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace"?
You have tried to make these verses say something they clearly do not say....unless you can show some scriputural basis for music that you personally don't like actually being sin then you have no arguement except this one;
"I don't like it"
Which would be perfectly fine.
1 Cor. 3:1, 3:3, 13:11
Heb. 5:10-6:3
Where did you get that "fact"?
The ORIGINAL church was completely jewish. Music is as important as bread in their culture. If there weren't instruments then it was only because no one in that town could afford one.
Now that it is established that Israel under the Law was an infant, and that the instruction they received winked at their ignorance and superstition, and that the Early Church abandoned Jewish forms,
Where was this established? I don't see this anywhere in the Book except concerning the purpose for the sacrificial laws. You can't just insinuate something and expect us to take it as fact.
it remains only to cite St. Paul to show that even babes in Christ, are yet carnal, and that his exhortations are always to grow up and put away childish things.
It is a gross mis-interpretation to envoke the "love" chapter and apply it to music in the modern world.
If anything, this verse is speaks to our attitude towards people that we don't understand. Even IF you have all knowledge, love toward others is more important.
I don't see any love in your responses to anyone, Aaron....much less patience or kindness. Instead of twisting a few verses out of context you should be twisting yourself to fit the verses.
Let's look at what precedes your "proof text"
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking , it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
1 Corinthians 3
Paul is rebuking these carnal christians because they are choosing between him and Apollos. No where does it say anything about any style of music being "worldly" but he does go on to say this;
I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
And Hebrews 5 & 6?
C'mon...you can't really be serious? Are you equating modern worship music with "the unrighteous act of crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace"?
You have tried to make these verses say something they clearly do not say....unless you can show some scriputural basis for music that you personally don't like actually being sin then you have no arguement except this one;
"I don't like it"
Which would be perfectly fine.
1 Cor. 3:1, 3:3, 13:11
Heb. 5:10-6:3
I apologize. As a newcomer you would not be up to date with all the discussions that have gone on in this forum since 2000.
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=58;t=003189
You'll gave to go to the 2002 archives and paste this URL in the address field of your browser.
ScottEmerson
Active Member
I'm glad you posted that link. It does show just how scant the evidence is that instruments were
not allowed in worship. Eric B did a great job there!
See, yod - you're right!
Let's go back and see what exactly it was that I said. Here it is:
It is easier to evoke ecstatic responses with repetitious, heavily rhythmic music than it is with handclapping, hallelujah's, glory's to God, and so on repeated over and over in a mantra-like fashion.
Note the portion in bold print. That's the qualifier.
Here's what you've done with my words. I might say something like "Maliciously driving a car through a crowd of pedestrians is murder." Your reaction, to keep it parallel with what you've done with my former statement, would be "The burden is on you to prove that driving a car is murder."
My point, obviously, is not about saying, "Hallelujah," or something like that, but about the attempt to drum up an ecstatic experience by chanting it over and over. You can chant anything, even "Jesus is Lord," over and over and it will facilitate altered states of consciousness. It's just easier with CCM than it used to be when it was pretty much up to the individual to work up his own ecstasy.
So I said: It is easier to evoke ecstatic responses with repetitious, heavily rhythmic music than it is with handclapping, hallelujah's, glory's to God, and so on repeated over and over in a mantra-like fashion.
Then you said that handclapping, hallelujah's and so on were in the Psalms.
I said, attempting to redirect you to the qualifying segment of that sentence, Really? ... Repeated over and over again in a mantra-like fashion?.
Then you tried to say that in Psalm 136 was a mantra-like repetition, a statement so absurd there's nothing to compare it with.
It should be plain, now that you aren't really dealing with any of my arguments. You're dragging red herrings across the path to throw us off the scent.
But there are some statements you made as fact that demand a response:
The expression of worship most certainly has changed. The primary activity in any temple is worship. What was the Israelite doing when he brought a burnt offering, or a meat or peace offering to be burned on the Brazen Altar? He was worshipping. These offerings rose as a "sweet savor" to God.
Sin and Trespass offerings were not burned on the Brazen Altar. They were burned "outside the camp." There is no mention of any "sweet savor" in connection with the Sin and Trespass offerings.
But that the expression of worship has changed, and that dramatically, is clearly evident in Christ's own words, "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father," John 4:21. The only lawful place to worship was Jerusalem. Remember the iniquity of the "high places?" But Jesus said that soon those that worship would worship in spirit and in truth.
And what say ye of 2 Chronicles 29:25-26? Here you see Hezekiah restoring a Levitical orchestra to the Temple. This orchestra was founded by David, being a prophet Acts 2:30, Nathan and Gad. And shall I remind you that Solomon's Temple was never seen in the pattern shown to Moses in the Mount? The development of the temple cultus in later stages of Israel's history is no less a part of the work of the Law than those things explicitly commanded in the Pentateuch.
These later additions were also done away with the dissolution of the temple cultus. In fact, when the Temple was destroyed in 586 B.C. the Synagogue form of worship was developed in its stead. The rites of the Temple were symbolized in vicarious rites, and the music was plainsong—no instruments. How could they worship according to the Law outside the Temple? Only by faith.
This was the basic form of worship emulated by the Early Christians, not the outward forms used in the Temple.
Aaron, you can attempt to discredit my personal witness and testimony all you want. It doesn't make it any less true.
The decision was that God had accepted them just like they are and they don't have to embrace jewish culture. Up until this time, anyone who wanted to join themselves to the God of Israel had to go through circumcision (as I'm sure you are aware).
This was a huge revelation that God could accept gentiles like they were....they only had to change their heart and turn from evil (fornication & idols) and follow a couple of dietary laws about blood and things strangled.
Shall we now make a checklist and expect everyone to enjoy the same cultural preferences you have before we can say that it pleases God?
Let me try again...
Musical preference is merely a cultural decision. Not a "righteousness" decision.
I can hear you saying that you don't like it...I can hear you implying that it's evil...but I still don't hear any proof.
Can you do better than those last 3 verses you twisted around?
In Acts 15, the jews have to decide what they are going to do about all the gentiles who are coming into the church.
The decision was that God had accepted them just like they are and they don't have to embrace jewish culture. Up until this time, anyone who wanted to join themselves to the God of Israel had to go through circumcision (as I'm sure you are aware).
This was a huge revelation that God could accept gentiles like they were....they only had to change their heart and turn from evil (fornication & idols) and follow a couple of dietary laws about blood and things strangled.
Shall we now make a checklist and expect everyone to enjoy the same cultural preferences you have before we can say that it pleases God?
Let me try again...
Musical preference is merely a cultural decision. Not a "righteousness" decision.
I can hear you saying that you don't like it...I can hear you implying that it's evil...but I still don't hear any proof.
Can you do better than those last 3 verses you twisted around?
ScottEmerson
Active Member
But there you have it. Repeated over and over and over and over and over again in a call and response. Calling it "absurd" does not take away the fact that this phrase is repeated continually.
[/quote]It should be plain, now that you aren't really dealing with any of my arguments. You're dragging red herrings across the path to throw us off the scent.[/quote]
This coming from someone who cannot show a single instance where praise and worship is sinful. You haven't provided the passage. You never have.
So, let me get this straight - which of these is okay in worship today?
Clapping.
Shouting Hallelujah's
Shouting "Glory to God."
Dancing.
Swaying.
Singing in four-part harmony.
Drums in worship.
Piano in worship.
Guitar in worship.
Just so I know where you are coming from. Which of these is okay, and which of these is not?
In both the OT and the NT one of the forms of worship is singing. Is a difference specified between the types of music allowed? If we want to be technical, EVERYTHING THAT WE DO as Christians is either worship or sin.
And this changes what specific rules? Instruments? Motions? Shouting? Dancing? You've placed a whole lot of presupposition in this verse.
Again, this was not under the Mosaic law, and was not considered as such. That David prescribed it has nothing to do with Mosaic law.
This was done by society, not because God somehow didn't allow it.
Speaking of red herrings... You still haven't shown how such things are sinful. That's the burden of proof that you must realize.
Here is a point that you didn't pick up on or purposefully ignored:
The OT talks about giving a tithe. The NT is silent. By your logic, we may give 9% or 11%, but to give 10% is an obvious sin. In the same way there is no prohibition or even any negativity toward the use of instruments in worship.
Ok Bob....let's look at some of the stereotypes which are valid
If one chews Skoal and wears boots they probably have their radio tuned into a Country & Western station
If one smokes dope and has long hair they probably tune into a hard rock station
If one likes hip-hop and crack they probably listen to the R&B station.
If one wears a bow tie by choice they probaby listen to public radio
If someone is a sports or news junkie then they listen to talk radio (that's me btw)
What are the cultural characteristics of someone who listens to CCM? Soccer moms make up the largest demographic of mainstream CCM. That breaks down differently for the various genres within CCM.
But is the reverse true for the majority on all of these? In other words, does listening to rock and roll MAKE you a dope smoker? Does listening to Country & Western make you a drunk who is constantly cheating on your wife?
Of course not...though it certainly must influence attitudes. What is the prevailing attitude of those who like CCM which makes it "ungodly"?
The people I personally know who like CCM are all very dedicated christians. They go to church every time the doors open. They LOVE Jesus.
Aaron is trying to say that CCM turns people into charismatics but my wife is from a Baptist background. She has not become charismatic by virtue of her listening preferences.
I've asked this question in different ways but maybe I should just ask plainly;
What is the sin of CCM?
I agree that most of it is boring but does that make it wrong?
And the logic of this arguement is faulty at an even more basic level. I can show you more people who were turned off to Jesus because of a bad church than a bad song. Does this mean that we should label all churches as ungodly and close the doors?
If one chews Skoal and wears boots they probably have their radio tuned into a Country & Western station
If one smokes dope and has long hair they probably tune into a hard rock station
If one likes hip-hop and crack they probably listen to the R&B station.
If one wears a bow tie by choice they probaby listen to public radio
If someone is a sports or news junkie then they listen to talk radio (that's me btw)
What are the cultural characteristics of someone who listens to CCM? Soccer moms make up the largest demographic of mainstream CCM. That breaks down differently for the various genres within CCM.
But is the reverse true for the majority on all of these? In other words, does listening to rock and roll MAKE you a dope smoker? Does listening to Country & Western make you a drunk who is constantly cheating on your wife?
Of course not...though it certainly must influence attitudes. What is the prevailing attitude of those who like CCM which makes it "ungodly"?
The people I personally know who like CCM are all very dedicated christians. They go to church every time the doors open. They LOVE Jesus.
Aaron is trying to say that CCM turns people into charismatics but my wife is from a Baptist background. She has not become charismatic by virtue of her listening preferences.
I've asked this question in different ways but maybe I should just ask plainly;
What is the sin of CCM?
I agree that most of it is boring but does that make it wrong?
And the logic of this arguement is faulty at an even more basic level. I can show you more people who were turned off to Jesus because of a bad church than a bad song. Does this mean that we should label all churches as ungodly and close the doors?
