Music in Latin and such...

[Dale McNamee]

Hello Everyone!

I saw the song "Kadosh" referenced in a previous post and wanted to say that we sing the song as a congregation,in Hebrew and in English,since we have both texts printed in the bulletin. We've also sung other Hebrew,African,
Chinese,etc.songs shared with us by our missionaries.

My pastor is Jewish and speaks English,Hebrew, Yiddish,Greek,Syriac,Aramaic,some Arabic,and some Amharic(Ethiopian). He uses the languages, when appropriate,in the sermon to enhance our understanding of the Scripture texts and why they were translated thus by the various translations.


Also,we hosted an Ethiopian church for 7 years until their church was built and dedicated this year. We also host a Korean church.

If you have the English translations available,there should not be any problems with the congregation singing them.

In Christ,
Dale

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Enda,

I didn't mean to imply that you were narrow-minded. Perhaps that was a bad choice of words, I apologize.

As far as the "unknown tongue" argument, I can see your point. I don't agree completely with your interpretation of Paul's Scripture, but completely understand your viewpoint, and it is a valid one.

The congregation needs at all times to be aware and conscious of what they are singing, and Who they are singing to. I agree with that, and that's why I mentioned that my former church did all know what they were singing. And they sang it joyfully. Aesthetics aside, I think to rob the Church of some of this music from the early Church is to take away some very vital history. I'm not saying this would be an every week occurrence, nor am I stressing the need to a return to liturgy and chant.

We have sung in my current church a worship song called "We Fall Down". The composer, Chris Tomlin, sang it in Botswana, Africa leading worship one night. Botswana being a multi-language nation, they taught him the song in what I believe is Afrikaans. I love singing the song with those lyrics, because knowing the song like I do, I have a full understanding of what I'm singing and to Whom.

Didn't really mean to dredge up the Catholic argument. That's, I guess, another thread completely...

Anyway, I guess what I'm asking is, if everyone in the congregation is cognizant of the meaning of the words, what hurt can there be in singing with another language?

 

[DanielFive]

Anyway, I guess what I'm asking is, if everyone in the congregation is cognizant of the meaning of the words, what hurt can there be in singing with another language?

Thanks for that post Joshua, I appreciated it. I fully agree with your point here.

God Bless

Enda

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Thanks Enda.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
What are y'all's (that's how we say it in Florida, you know) feelings about singing hymns and special music in languages other than English?

Sing it in whatever language ya want

If it increases yer worship, then more power to ya!

Johnv
Mozart "Requiem" fan.

 

[MikeS]

(Warning: Catholic perspective follows! )

This is a subject I've thought a lot about recently. For the last couple of years my wife has directed a Catholic touring choir, and most of the music is, not surprisingly, Latin. This music works in a very different way today than music in English. With Latin music, the (non-Latin-speaking) mind is freed from decoding the words, and the music can and does work at a different level. I've been listening to their latest CD every day, and the music always takes me into a very holy and devotional space. And then come some pilgrim songs from the 14th century that are joyous, exuberant, toe-tapping, knee-slapping testimonies of faith! Not having to decode the words allows me to "[enter] more deeply into the contemplative dimension of worship, which includes the sense of awe, reverence and adoration which are fundamental attitudes in our relationship with God." Of course, it's better if one has a translation available to see what is being sung about!

Should anybody want "the rest of the story," I spent my entire adult life (30 years) as a totally lapsed Catholic. During the choir's first set of concerts I sat there and sobbed my eyes out, as the music washed away the grime and gunk of the world and allowed God to reach me for the first time. Beautiful and reverent Latin music, beautifully and reverently sung, brought me back to God (hallelujah!) and the Catholic Church (yeah, yeah, I know

) and I rejoice every day for the woman God chose for me to marry, and for her gift which God used to bring me home. Thank you, dear Lord!

 

[stubbornkelly]

I've sung in Latin for about 15 years now, and the translations just do not compare.

I've sung in Baptist choirs, and have always felt there's something missing - it isn't necessarily the language, but it is definitely the quality of the music. The better quality music is, for better or worse, the older stuff, usually in Latin, German or French.

Does the quality matter? As a musician, to me it does. It may not to others. But I'm not going to let the fact that a piece is in Latin spoil a huge selection of music.

Is it too "Catholic?" Most of it did originate that way (Mozart's masses . . . ), but again, that doesn't make it unusable by us.

 

[DanielFive]

Does the quality matter? As a musician, to me it does. It may not to others. But I'm not going to let the fact that a piece is in Latin spoil a huge selection of music.

Kelly,

I would agree that the quality matters, but it would concern me if the quality was TOO good. There is definitely a danger of people, particularly music lovers, becoming so engrossed in the music that they miss the message. On the other hand if the music is TOO bad it could be distracting as well so I think there is a happy medium, keep it professional but simple.

As an artist I can relate to how musicians feel about their talent. In our church we have the text "We preach Christ crucified" painted across the wall behind the pulpit. Of course I'd love to sit staring at a Caravaggio painting on the back wall but my love of art takes second place to my love for God and my desire to give my heart to Him during worship.

Can you see what I'm getting at?

 

[Dr. Bob]

While some might rightly link "Latin" to "Roman Catholic", there is a far greater link.

"Latin" is the language of CULTURE and SCHOLARSHIP. It is depth of study, philosophy, theology. Just as I use illustrations from other areas of life, so I use the beauty and depth of language - in music, sermons, stories.

There was a time, less that a century ago, when no one was truly educated without the ability to read the Iliad in its native Latin or the histories of Thucydides in Greek.

We were so much richer then. The continual "watering down" of our culture shows in our language first.

Why not use that 90 minutes on Sunday morning to lift up our souls (man, I'm almost sounding neo-platonic) to a higher plain.

Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.

 

[DanielFive]

Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.

Vescere bracis meis

 

[Sherrie]

Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
The designated hitter rule has got to go.

Vescere bracis meis.
Eat my shorts.


Feles mala! Cur cista non uteris? Stramentum novum in ea posui.

Si hoc legere scis numium eruditionis habes.



Sherrie

 

[DanielFive]

Feles mala! Cur cista non uteris? Stramentum novum in ea posui

Bad kitty! Why don't you use the cat box? I put new litter in it.

Si hoc legere scis numium eruditionis habes

Thanks Sherrie, Credo nos in fluctu eodem esse, but you spelt nimium wrong, didn't you listen in school

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.


Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

 

[Sherrie]

Si hoc legere scis numium eruditionis habes

Means: If you can read this, you are overeducated.

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

We have catapults. If you will not give us all of the money, we will fling enormous rocks at your head.

Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

I think some people in togas are plotting against me.

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

I can't hear you I have a bananna in my ear


And:

Lingua Latina lingua est,
Tam mortua quam mortua esse potest,
Romanos omnis necavit,
Nuncque me necans est!

Latin is a language,
As dead as dead can be,
It killed off all the Romans,
And now it's killing me!

Sherrie

 

[DanielFive]

Good one Sherrie

Mihi ignosce. Cum homine de cane debeo congredi.
Die dulci frere.

 

[Sherrie]

Do not think I will repeat the first....

Die dulci frere

But you have a nice day too!

Sherrie

 

[DanielFive]

Do not think I will repeat the first....

Sherrie, it meant "Excuse me. I've got to see a man about a dog". (I hope)

 

[Sherrie]

Yes I know.

And in America, without going into detail, that means you will be using the Restrooms. Or from where I am located at, it means that.

Sherrie

 

[DanielFive]

Whoops! Thats not what I meant.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by Sherrie:
Feles mala! Cur cista non uteris? Stramentum novum in ea posui.

Si hoc legere scis numium eruditionis habes.

Agree. Sometimes education is a curse!

But in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!

Is this the "biggest lie" we've told?
Perscriptio in manibus tabellariorum est

 

[Aaron]

Is that "The check's in the mail?"

Back to the topic at hand. Unless all are edified, then it's out. I think Bro. Enda mentioned the explicit prohibition of this kind of thing in 1 Corinthians.

Yet, the CCM crowd is still going for it.