OSAS? (An example)

I need a little more information here. You say he "renouned God" and walked away from the church entirely, but that doesn't quite mean anything to me. He was never saved in the first place by confessing God and walking toward the Church. He was saved by trusting his salvation to Jesus, namely, believing that Jesus's sacrifice was suffient for his Sins and that Jesus would save him on the last day via that sacrifice.

So my question is, does he no longer believe that Jesus will save him from his sins? Does he believe that Jesus can't? Does he believe that Jesus wouldn't? or does he believe that even if Jesus would save him, he would rather not have his sins forgiven?

 

Unfortunately, for this man who walked away from God and the ministry, only he knows for sure if he were saved. But, the Bible tells us that "but their fruits, ye shall know them". He had fruit, therefore, he most likely was saved.

As for his present life, he is most likely miserable, as the Spirit will be a constant reminder of salvation. To some that have turned away from doing right, they often do so because they cannot forgive themselves for the sin they have commited. Some use this as an excuse rather than give up the sin, while others just cannot see how they will ever be worthy to go before God knowing how awful their sin is, and that they are defeated in trying to stop this sin from recurring.

Are you looking for reasons how this could happen or for Biblical support in OSAS?

 

This sounds like apostasy to me. I agree it is completely biblical and is the most accurate position.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

But then it is impossible for those who were saved to be saved again - lest you crucify Christ anew and put Him to shame

Thus salvation is a one shot deal - thus sin conquers grace

This is NOT highly desirable - ITS far worse than Calvinism to me

 

The man's salvation is not in question. But I can guarantee that he is a miserable person. God chastises those that are His as sons, meaning when we get out of line we suffer the due consequences. I may be saved, but if I rob a bank I will go to jail, no matter what I want.

This man is probably totally wretched in his soul. He may put on a good front, but when he's alone at night he will be haunted by the knowledge that he is wrong, and that God is still there waiting on him. God will never force Himself on anyone, but He is never more than a prayer away.

At one time I tried to turn my back on God. I was as utterly miserable as any man has ever been. The more I tried to turn from God, the more in my vision He was. Even when I shook my fist and cursed God, all I heard was the echo of, "I'm waiting, and I still love you." When I had run myself out, He took me in His arms and let me know that no matter how far or how long I ran, He was still there with me. To paraphase David, "Even if I ran to the rising place of the sun, or its resting place, to the bottom of the ocean, or even tried to escape in death, You are still there with me."

This man may live out the rest of his days in this state, and when he stands before the judgement seat of Christ, he will weep all the more bitterly for the way in which he treated His Savior and for the rewards that he let pass by.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Again I find myself following you with a "thumbs up" as it were. You have captured here the heart of a Father for His son.

 

Saved means you aren't going to hell. It doesn't mean you are on the right path (and may or may not stay on that path) to heaven. You aren't saved to heaven, you are saved FROM hell. You are either rescued or you are not. If you ARE rescued from hell then you CAN'T go there or else you WEREN'T rescued. Saved doesn't mean you are a Christian, it doesn't mean you are right with God, it doesn't mean you are so far doing what is necessary to get to heaven. It means you AREN'T going to hell. If you ARE saved you AREN'T going to hell, it is that simple.

 

Bad anti-OSAS logic.
Bro. Dragon made a statemetn disproving
option #2 (never saved) which
presumes option #3 (he was saved, but now
is not). As always in logic, if you assume
the outcome, you can "logically" get the
outcome.

Bro. Dragon: "No matter how secure your faith,
no matter how absolute you resolve,
if an event 15 years in the future can
determine your salvation today, you cannot
be sure of anything."

Recall that God is NOT limited to going
through time in one direction, as are we
petty humans. He can go backwards, if He
wishes. He can go sideways, whatever that
means (bilocation?).

Needless to say, OSAS is NOT about the
perfidy of humans, but about the steadfastness
of God. And one who uses OSAS as a
lisence to sin, hasn't read the Bible lately.

 

I mean no offense to Dragon here as God is my witness, but, why are you drawing us to discuss our theology on the eternal security of a believer when you don't even believe in Jesus yourself ? Seems to me like you should be asking why we believe that Jesus is God.

 

So where is the saved going ?

 

I guess if you're not saved, you go to hell. If you're saved, you go to heaven unless you fall away. In that case you go to Newark, NJ.

 

I would say #2, possibly #1, but not #3. Only God knows with certainty the condition of his soul. For the rest of us, we can only go by appearance and behaviour to make any judgments about his salvation.

It is possible to a pastor and preach for years and not be "born again". That's exactly what happened to John Wesley. Read his biography.

I can't accept #3.

 

I agree that it is possible for a person to preach for years and never be in a saving relationship with Christ. I also believe that someone can be in a saving relationship with Christ and utterly fall away and be rejected by God.

Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." 16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 1 Samuel 28:15-16 NIV

Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Timothy 1:18-20 NIV

Here are three examples from the Bible that show the reality of ruining your faith by rejecting it and by disobedience.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

The beginnng poster gave options, say, 1, 2, 3. Only three.

1· He was saved, and is still saved - God did not accept his renunciation, and his subsequent sinful lifestyle has no effect on his salvation.

2· He never was saved - during all those years he was preaching, he was really an unbeliever (though he sure didn’t know it).

3· He was saved, but now is not - God accepted
his renunciation.

Perhaps these are not the only options. I would be inclined to number one, if it were worded differently. The clause "his subsequent sinful lifestyle has no effect on his salvation" bothers me. I do not believe salvation can be lost (a host of Scriptures seem to say that), but I'm sure the wayward saved person is affected.

Rufus 0)