OSAS? (An example)

[Petey Dragon]

I knew a man who was a pastor for about 15 years. He was a very holy and righteous man, preaching every Sunday and leading many people to Jesus. He was highly regarded in his denomination and in his community. He was very strong in his faith, and absolutely positive in his faith in God and in his assurance of salvation. However, something really bad happened (the details are unimportant). Ultimately, he renounced Jesus, renounced God, and walked away from the church entirely.

So - what is the fate of this man?

There are three possibilities:
· He was saved, and is still saved - God did not accept his renunciation, and his subsequent sinful lifestyle has no effect on his salvation.
· He never was saved - during all those years he was preaching, he was really an unbeliever (though he sure didn’t know it).
· He was saved, but now is not - God accepted his renunciation.

“Once Saved - Always Saved” absolutely renounces the third option, and declares that one of the first two must be true. Let's look at them individually


1) He was saved, and is still saved

This theology states that this man could absolutely renounce God and then turn and live a consciously deliberately wicked life - with no consequences to his salvation - then that means that anyone else could absolutely renounce God and then turn and live a wicked life - with no consequences to his or her salvation.

It is not a question of whether a person SHOULD live a wicked sinful life -- it is a question of whether a person CAN. To accept that the person is still saved is a resounding declaration that all believers CAN sin with impunity (even if they should not and choose not to do so).


2) He never was saved

This theology states that because this person renounced God and went willingly into sin, he must never have been a believer.

What is the consequence of this belief? This man preached for 15 years, prayed daily, and was absolutely assured of his salvation. He was widely praised as a paragon of Christian living and ideology. And yet - because of a tragic event which would happen in the future - during all of those years, he was never saved.

If this is true, then that means that no Christian can EVER have any assurance of salvation. No matter how secure your faith, no matter how absolute your resolve, if an event 15 years in the future can determine your salvation today, you cannot be sure of anything.


And so we have the consequence of the modern version of “Once Saved - Always Saved”. If you believe this doctrine, then you have a choice. Either you acknowledge a right to sin with impunity, or you renounce assurance of salvation.

Either way, the consequence is utterly un-Biblical. So, let's consider the alternative...


3) He was saved, but now is not.

This position is not a question of “losing” your salvation (gee... I had it a minute ago... where’d it go???... Oh, no! I’ve lost it!). It is a question of renouncing it. There is a huge difference.

This is a highly desirable position theologically. It maintains assurance of salvation, while rejecting the right to sin with impunity. It is, of the three options, the only one that really makes sense Biblically.

 

[Pete Richert]

Ultimately, he renounced Jesus, renounced God, and walked away from the church entirely.

I need a little more information here. You say he "renouned God" and walked away from the church entirely, but that doesn't quite mean anything to me. He was never saved in the first place by confessing God and walking toward the Church. He was saved by trusting his salvation to Jesus, namely, believing that Jesus's sacrifice was suffient for his Sins and that Jesus would save him on the last day via that sacrifice.

So my question is, does he no longer believe that Jesus will save him from his sins? Does he believe that Jesus can't? Does he believe that Jesus wouldn't? or does he believe that even if Jesus would save him, he would rather not have his sins forgiven?

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Unfortunately, for this man who walked away from God and the ministry, only he knows for sure if he were saved. But, the Bible tells us that "but their fruits, ye shall know them". He had fruit, therefore, he most likely was saved.

As for his present life, he is most likely miserable, as the Spirit will be a constant reminder of salvation. To some that have turned away from doing right, they often do so because they cannot forgive themselves for the sin they have commited. Some use this as an excuse rather than give up the sin, while others just cannot see how they will ever be worthy to go before God knowing how awful their sin is, and that they are defeated in trying to stop this sin from recurring.

Are you looking for reasons how this could happen or for Biblical support in OSAS?

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Petey Dragon:
He was saved, but now is not.

This position is not a question of “losing” your salvation (gee... I had it a minute ago... where’d it go???... Oh, no! I’ve lost it!). It is a question of renouncing it. There is a huge difference.

This is a highly desirable position theologically. It maintains assurance of salvation, while rejecting the right to sin with impunity. It is, of the three options, the only one that really makes sense Biblically.

This sounds like apostasy to me. I agree it is completely biblical and is the most accurate position.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Sularis]

But then it is impossible for those who were saved to be saved again - lest you crucify Christ anew and put Him to shame

Thus salvation is a one shot deal - thus sin conquers grace

This is NOT highly desirable - ITS far worse than Calvinism to me

 

[Trotter]

The man's salvation is not in question. But I can guarantee that he is a miserable person. God chastises those that are His as sons, meaning when we get out of line we suffer the due consequences. I may be saved, but if I rob a bank I will go to jail, no matter what I want.

This man is probably totally wretched in his soul. He may put on a good front, but when he's alone at night he will be haunted by the knowledge that he is wrong, and that God is still there waiting on him. God will never force Himself on anyone, but He is never more than a prayer away.

At one time I tried to turn my back on God. I was as utterly miserable as any man has ever been. The more I tried to turn from God, the more in my vision He was. Even when I shook my fist and cursed God, all I heard was the echo of, "I'm waiting, and I still love you." When I had run myself out, He took me in His arms and let me know that no matter how far or how long I ran, He was still there with me. To paraphase David, "Even if I ran to the rising place of the sun, or its resting place, to the bottom of the ocean, or even tried to escape in death, You are still there with me."

This man may live out the rest of his days in this state, and when he stands before the judgement seat of Christ, he will weep all the more bitterly for the way in which he treated His Savior and for the rewards that he let pass by.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Watchman]

Again I find myself following you with a "thumbs up" as it were. You have captured here the heart of a Father for His son.

 

[Artimaeus]

Saved means you aren't going to hell. It doesn't mean you are on the right path (and may or may not stay on that path) to heaven. You aren't saved to heaven, you are saved FROM hell. You are either rescued or you are not. If you ARE rescued from hell then you CAN'T go there or else you WEREN'T rescued. Saved doesn't mean you are a Christian, it doesn't mean you are right with God, it doesn't mean you are so far doing what is necessary to get to heaven. It means you AREN'T going to hell. If you ARE saved you AREN'T going to hell, it is that simple.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Bad anti-OSAS logic.
Bro. Dragon made a statemetn disproving
option #2 (never saved) which
presumes option #3 (he was saved, but now
is not). As always in logic, if you assume
the outcome, you can "logically" get the
outcome.

Bro. Dragon: "No matter how secure your faith,
no matter how absolute you resolve,
if an event 15 years in the future can
determine your salvation today, you cannot
be sure of anything."

Recall that God is NOT limited to going
through time in one direction, as are we
petty humans. He can go backwards, if He
wishes. He can go sideways, whatever that
means (bilocation?).

Needless to say, OSAS is NOT about the
perfidy of humans, but about the steadfastness
of God. And one who uses OSAS as a
lisence to sin, hasn't read the Bible lately.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I mean no offense to Dragon here as God is my witness, but, why are you drawing us to discuss our theology on the eternal security of a believer when you don't even believe in Jesus yourself ? Seems to me like you should be asking why we believe that Jesus is God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
Saved means you aren't going to hell. It doesn't mean you are on the right path (and may or may not stay on that path) to heaven. You aren't saved to heaven, you are saved FROM hell. You are either rescued or you are not. If you ARE rescued from hell then you CAN'T go there or else you WEREN'T rescued. Saved doesn't mean you are a Christian, it doesn't mean you are right with God, it doesn't mean you are so far doing what is necessary to get to heaven. It means you AREN'T going to hell. If you ARE saved you AREN'T going to hell, it is that simple.

So where is the saved going ?

 

[npetreley]

I guess if you're not saved, you go to hell. If you're saved, you go to heaven unless you fall away. In that case you go to Newark, NJ.

 

[Jeffrey H]

I would say #2, possibly #1, but not #3. Only God knows with certainty the condition of his soul. For the rest of us, we can only go by appearance and behaviour to make any judgments about his salvation.

It is possible to a pastor and preach for years and not be "born again". That's exactly what happened to John Wesley. Read his biography.

I can't accept #3.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Jeffrey H:
It is possible to a pastor and preach for years and not be "born again". That's exactly what happened to John Wesley. Read his biography.

I can't accept #3.

I agree that it is possible for a person to preach for years and never be in a saving relationship with Christ. I also believe that someone can be in a saving relationship with Christ and utterly fall away and be rejected by God.

Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." 16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 1 Samuel 28:15-16 NIV

Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Timothy 1:18-20 NIV

Here are three examples from the Bible that show the reality of ruining your faith by rejecting it and by disobedience.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Yelsew]

Then there is the story of Jacob and Esau.

Jacob gained Esau's rightful Birthright through deception. But Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of porridge.

The one coveted the birthright, the other thought very little of it.

To one the birthright was everything, to the other a mere bowl of porridge.

True we cannot deceive ourselves into eternal life, but we certainly can forfeit that life for a bowl of porridge.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Petey Dragon;

I use to watch a certain minister on television. I'll leave his name out of it, but the man was well known. He led many to Christ and although I didn't agree with everything in this mans doctrine I still watched him because I liked to hear him preach. His preaching was at times very convincing which is why I watched him. He led a lot of people to Christ. but His down fall was women. Someone caught him with a prostitute and it just about wiped him out as a preacher.
Is this man saved?. I don't know, but it is possible that he was never saved. He could have still been used of God weather or not he was saved. I've stumbled accross several passages in the Bible that states that God can strike your name from the book of life or put your sins back on you for certain things. I know that Christ will go looking for his strays to round them up so to speak. but I don't think we will be held against our will as a Christian if this is not what we want either.

I believe that all three of the cenerios are possible.
1. He could still be saved. I know there has been times in my own life where Christ has had to carry me.
2. He may not have ever been saved. No one ever said that God can't use and unsaved person to bring about certain things.
It's also true that on judgement day there will be many that Christ will say to "I never knew you" There are many in the church who act like christians but are not.
3.He was saved, but now is not.
In all the sin I have commited since I was saved I have never not believed in Him.
To Say God has to accept you because you onced believed is denying his sovereignty. It's like saying God has to save you because you use to believe.Sounds a little lame doesn't it.
May God Bless You.
Mike

 

[rufus]

The beginnng poster gave options, say, 1, 2, 3. Only three.

1· He was saved, and is still saved - God did not accept his renunciation, and his subsequent sinful lifestyle has no effect on his salvation.

2· He never was saved - during all those years he was preaching, he was really an unbeliever (though he sure didn’t know it).

3· He was saved, but now is not - God accepted
his renunciation.

Perhaps these are not the only options. I would be inclined to number one, if it were worded differently. The clause "his subsequent sinful lifestyle has no effect on his salvation" bothers me. I do not believe salvation can be lost (a host of Scriptures seem to say that), but I'm sure the wayward saved person is affected.

Rufus 0)

 

[Yelsew]

Is renunciation of one's faith and the very existance of God not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Yelsew;

Is renunciation of one's faith and the very existance of God not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

Good point one I didn't ponder. If so this is unforgiveable isn't it?.
May God bless you.
Mike

 

[Yelsew]

Seems to me if someone renounces you, even to the point of you not existing, that you would have no loyalty to that one. So why should God have loyalty to one who does that to Him?