The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

Sorry, please delete this, the flood control messed me up.

[ September 18, 2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: TFCDR ]

 

MY ANSWER PART I (questions 1-3)

First, contextually you are mistaken. Remember that the whole numbering system is not in the original manuscrips. So in essence 1 Thess 5:9 is a continuation of what Paul is talking about in 1 Thess 4:13-18. The Rapture. I used to waffle on the meaning of wrath hear as well until you consider that. Furthermore when you look at the promise in Rev 3:10 you see the same contextual statement. Furthermore consider this:

Ok, now show me any verse referring to the Rapture that a) discusses these signs in conjunction with it and b) comparing the verses referring to the Second Coming and the Rapture we have two different descriptions. In the Rapture we have the dead in christ and those who remain (Church age believers) rising to meet the Lord in the air. Did you catch that...rising to meet the Lord in the air....NOT being collected by angels. In the Second Coming we have Christ coming WITH His saints, in the Rapture we have the Lord coming FOR His saints. Two unique and distinct events.

Ah, but this is because your understanding of the "day of the Lord" is incorrect. In 1 Thess 2:2 you will note it reads the "day of Christ is at hand". Apparently this is an transliterational error and should read "day of the Lord is at hand". At first look one might think this wording difference to be insignificant. Actually it's quite the contrary.

Scripture points out the significance of the term "day of the Lord". There are 29 verses using the phrase: Isa_2:12; Isa_13:6; Isa_13:9; Isa_34:8; Jer_46:10; Lam_2:22; Eze_13:5; Eze_30:3; Joe_1:15; Joe_2:1; Joe_2:11; Joe_2:31; Joe_3:14; Amo_5:18; Amo_5:20; Oba_1:15; Zep_1:7; Zep_1:8; Zep_1:14; Zep_1:18; Zep_2:2; Zep_2:3; Zec_14:1; Mal_4:5; Act_2:20; 1Co_5:5; 2Co_1:14; 1Th_5:2; 2Pe_3:10;

What is significant is that it doesn't refer to a single 24 hour period of time, but rather a period of time in which God pours forth His wrath and later his blessings.

So to the Thessalonians (and the Christians of that time), the "day of the Lord" meant the final time period of human history (remember that Revelation had not been written yet....they had Daniel, Isaiah and others that talked about the end times.

(continued in next post)

 

PART II

For this go here for a complete study on the restrainer: http://www.tribulationforces.com/therestrainer.shtml

I've never heard that nor would I remotely prescribe to that. The passage says "angels" so it means "angels". The 24 Elders are what represent specific chosen people selected from the church at that point. Note the crowns...that is what is being talked about when people say these verses show the raptured church....the angels are angels.

Again see question 5, this is a repeat of that question. Your understanding of the pre-Trib position is incorrect. Those referred to in Revelation 7:9-14 are those who came to Christ during the Tribulation. They are not the Church as the church left before the Tribulation. These martyrs were a result of the work of the 144,000 witnesses called out by God to spread the Gospel.

God wants no one to fail, He wants everyone to return to himself. You are making a conclusion based on the false assumption that the church remains. The church is not mentioned between Rev 4-19...and is seen returning with Christ in Rev 19:11. Again:

This comment is nothing more than demagoguery. Show me any verse that says any of the following...that we will know who the antichrist is? That we are to be looking for him? That the church is to be looking for the Tribulation? etc.

Absolutely not...all throughout the epistles it is clear we are to be looking for Christ! Furthermore we are to be looking for Christ to return at any moment for we do not know and are not told when that will be...only the father knows. Once the Tribulation starts ANYONE with any sense will be able to predict the exact day when the Second COming will occur just by aligning the events of the Tribulation by what's laid out in Revelation. Since that's the case, and the Rapture needs nothing to preceed it (no signs, no events etc.) it is clear the Rapture occurs in an imminent fashion and it's a distinct event from the Second Coming. Furthermore show me a pre-Trib person who doesn't know what is going to go down in the Tribulation and I'll show you someone who has no clue. The logic you use in this comment is ludicrous as I know the events of the trib as well if not better than most post-tribbers...we don't teach a concept of "don't worry about learning about Revelation, you won't be here so you don't need to know it"...BUNK!! If anything knowing the events of the Tribulation reinforces the need and desire to evangelize to allow people to be spared from it.

Tim, my brother, you are misinformed about the pre-Trib Rapture. You may have at one time maintained that position, but I don't think you fully understood that position. These arguments you present against pre-trib are born out of not understand the Bible as literally written. The failings of the post-Trib position however are greivous and cannot be so rectified by Scripture.

In Christ
Joe

 

First this:

If that's truly the case the Greek "dia" would have been used instead of the Greek "ek". It is kept "from" as in "out of".

Also, you still mistunderstand the difference between tribulation and the Tribulation. Two separate things. Yes the church suffers tribulation and we will until the Rapture....HOWEVER....the Tribulation starts when Christ opens the first seal...wait...who opened the first seal? Christ did. Every judgment, all 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls...ALL are from God not satan, not man, not the antichrist. They are all set to punish the wicked, those who are not of God. These will fulfill the six fold purpose of Daniel's prophecy. Man (and satan) causes tribulation...GOD causes the Tribulation (i.e. Daniel's 70th week)

More later

In Christ
Joe

 

Reference the Restrainer:

No, I am saying that the accepted error in translation is that it should read the Day of the Lord and not the Day of Christ. As for # 2, you are not reading what it says and further the reason for the 2nd letter to Thessalonica...they were fearful because they thought they missed the rapture and the Day of the Lord had started. You need to check the history of that letter, not speculation from a post trib site.

In Christ
Joe

 

If that's truly the case the Greek "dia" would have been used instead of the Greek "ek". It is kept "from" as in "out of".
</font>[/QUOTE]And yet "ek" is translated as "in" just a few short verses later, in 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire...". "ek" is a preposition that does not have a specific meaning, but is often used for general-purpose. It can meant "out". It can mean "in". It can mean "by". It can mean "of", "on", "from", "with", etc.

No, we (most of us, anyway) understand the difference. It appears that you misunderstand the difference between tribulation and wrath.

Brian

 

Reference the crowns and the elders in Rev 5:8-14

In your defense you make the comment above and then provide a comment on Rev 4? That makes no sense. Who is awarded crowns upon completion of the Bema judgement? Believers. That's made clear throughout the New Testament. If the elders are wearing crowns, and you take it in context , they do indeed represent the church in the aspect of they are the chosen 24 who sit on those thrones around Christ, they've been judged and rewarded accordingly. Since this is the case, and since this is at the beginning of the Tribulation (70th week of Daniel)...they must have been judged prior.. HENCE THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.

In Christ
Joe

 

If that's truly the case the Greek "dia" would have been used instead of the Greek "ek". It is kept "from" as in "out of".
</font>[/QUOTE]And yet "ek" is translated as "in" just a few short verses later, in 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire...". "ek" is a preposition that does not have a specific meaning, but is often used for general-purpose. It can meant "out". It can mean "in". It can mean "by". It can mean "of", "on", "from", "with", etc.

No, we (most of us, anyway) understand the difference. It appears that you misunderstand the difference between tribulation and wrath.

Brian </font>[/QUOTE]Actually I do understand the difference Brian...the tribulation that the church faces (persecution, martyrdom etc) is of MAN...the wrath you are referring to, found throughout the TRIBULATION (Daniels 70th Week) is of GOD. BIG difference.

In Christ
Joe

 

Correct. Even pretrib believes there are people that accept Christ during the trib, the so-called "trib saints". If *they* can be present on the earth during "Tribulation" and "wrath", the presence of "Tribulation" and "wrath" does not preclude the presence of the church as well.

Not one verse in scripture says the church will be raptured 7 years prior to the end of the "Tribulation".

 

Tim too: " ... Tribulation is consistently used to describe
the sufferings that BELIEVERS endure at the hands of the UNGODLY."

Unfortunately you seem to have described only two out of
five "tribulations" i found in the Holy Bible:

---------------------------------

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adan & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:


--------------------------------------------

Only #2 and #3 here refer to the
"the hands of the UNGODLY"

In 2 Thess 1:6 "tribulation" appears to be the same
as "wrath".

In Romans 2:8-9, curses the self seeking
with "indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish".
Seems here that "tribulation" and "wrath" again
are similar.

In Romans 5:3, Paul seems to be speaking
of a "tribualtion" more like that in #1 of my
writing. Paul is speaking of the tribulation
which all humankind is aware of: the daily
strugle in this vail of tears.

According to the Tim_too definition of
"tribulation" 2 Corinthians 1:4 makes no sense.
We have to be persecuted to give comfort to
"those who are in any trouble"?
I see that if we suffer any trouble (like those
in my #1 above) then we can give comfort to
"those who are in any trouble.

 

Bingo.

Fascinating, isn't it, that pre-trib pre-supposes that there's something special about the church that it should be spared tribulation. I guess that if pre-trib were correct, the people saved during the tribulation would be second-class saints, since they don't get to go AWOL the way the church does.

 

Npetreley: "Fascinating, isn't it, that pre-trib pre-supposes
that there's something special about the church
that it should be spared tribulation."

I'd like to see your evidence that any pre-tribber
ever suggested such a thing. Priority would go to
a source on the Baptist Board. I've been a pretribber
for 51 years and have NEVER heard a pretribber
suggest this pre-supposition.

In fact, there is nothing special about the
raptured generation, nothing. God will have the
rapture before the tribulation on His schedule,
not ours.

 

First of all, to correct you for the umpteenth time, there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation period. There is a 70th week, but that is not equivalent to a tribulation period, and there is no place in the Bible that says it is.

There is something called the great tribulation, however, and here is how Jesus describes it:

So what you're saying is that God is responsible for many coming in His name and claiming to be the Christ. You're saying God delivers up the elect to tribulation to kill the saints and for the saints to be hated by all nations for the sake of Jesus. God makes people betray one another and hate one another. God sends false prophets to deceive many. And God makes lawlessness abound so that the love of many will grow cold.

That's what you're saying.

What I'm saying is all that great tribulation is of the devil and of man, and comes as a result of the restrainer (IMO Michael) being removed. But when it starts raining mountains, and angels start delivering plagues upon the earth, I call that God's wrath. And none of that occurs until AFTER the great tribulation.

 

Npetreley: "First of all, to correct you for the
umpteenth time, there is no such thing as a
7 year tribulation period. There is a 70th week,
but that is not equivalent to a tribulation period,
and there is no place in the Bible that says it is."

And your one and only one verse that PROVES
your statement is?

 

Tim too,

Most humble apologies. Wasn't meant as an affront, and am sorry that it wasn't worded better.

The whole arguement appears to be circular. Round and round, with no end (or quarter) in sight. And no one is coming any closer to their own goals, hence "never coming to the knowledge of the truth."

In Christ,
Trotter

 

It is one of the most popular arguments for pre-trib because it mistakes "not appointed to wrath" to mean we are not appointed to be around for the great tribulation because God will mercifully spare us the agony. Dwight Pentacost suggests such a thing in Things TO Come, and I'll be glad to quote it when I find my copy (it's packed somewhere - I just moved). That's one of the most authoritative books on end times there is, so you can't say it's not a qualified pre-tribber saying so.

Pre-tribbers compound the error by reasoning that we are exhorted to look forward to the return of Jesus, which would not be a comforting thought if we had to go through the great tribulation, therefore we must not be destined to go through the great tribulation. I would like someone to explain why God will spare us discomfort to Paul, who was stoned and left for dead, or to Peter, who was crucified upside down. Surely we are so much better than they that we deserve to be spared great tribulation.

That's why the pre-trib position is downright silly. Yes, we are not appointed to God's wrath -- that's what the Bible says, and it makes perfect sense. But there's nothing in the Bible that says we are to be spared tribulation of any kind, great or otherwise. Indeed, perserverence during great tribulation is an opportunity to glorify God.

 

You're asking me to prove a negative. The burden of proof is upon you to show me any verse that says there is a 7 year tribulation period, or that Daniel's 70th week is a 7-year period of great tribulation.