The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

Well, Tim, I'm impressed at how persistent you are in the face of futility! But I
don't enjoy your arguments, and dis-agree
with them.

Jesus is going to come back and get
me because i'm His, see John 14:1-3.
Jesus is going to come and defeat
the Antichrist (2 Thess 2:8).
These two additional new comings of
Jesus will be on the same prophetic
"day". God counts days different
from people (2 Peter 3:8).

 

Very interesting site, thanks!

 

Thank you.

Very Good, then you
can accept Tim Warner's presuppositions.
I used to visit Tim Warner's bulletin
board, but finally they hid it from
us pretribs.

 

Let me talk a bit about Mark 13:13
(quoted from above, no source given):
13 All men will hate you because of me,
but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Beware of making the following serious theological
and logical error.
"He who stands firm to the end will be saved."
is Biblical and true;
therefore "He who stands NOT firm to the end
will NOT be saved" is also true.

The true/false value of the second statement
is not logically connected to the true/false
value of the second statement.

The Bible (and Jesus was speaking) says:
He who stands firm to the end will be saved.
You must ADD to the Bible (beware Revelation 22:18)
to make this statement true:
He who stands NOT firm to the end will NOT be saved.

 

IMHO, to call 1/3 of the history
of manking "the gr4eat tribulation" displays
a great deal of ignorance about tribulation.

Above Tim too notes two types of tribulation.
Above i mention 5. Sure overlooking lots
of kinds of tribulation Bro

 

Tribulation Forces...Pre-Trib web site

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Slander does not further your
point. You know i use more scripture
in my postings than any other x-tribber
on the board.

 

The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib position.

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".


2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.


4. Mystery of His Will

Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

May God's will be done!

From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.

This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".

The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband

Revelation 19: (NIV):

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!

What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!

What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,

1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.

Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to traspe through the Tribulation
as some nay-sayers promote?


9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.

And this is all summed up in one word:

'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


_

10. Mystery of Godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.

Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is comple,
the Jesus will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.


12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:
This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.

Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


13. Mystery of God

This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets.

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.

 

The arguments on this site are weaker than restaurant tea (brewed in luke-warm water). It's nothing but speculation based on fanciful interpretations and human reasoning. For example...

There are so many things wrong with this "reasoning" it's hard to decide where to start. But here are a few objections just off the top of my head:

1. Assuming there weren't so many other things wrong with his chronology, who does the author think he is that he can presume how time passes in heaven? Not enough time for the wedding? Why? Does God have to wait for the cake order to be completed and the invitations to go out?

2. Who ever said the marriage supper of the Lamb has to take place before Jesus returns? He presumes that this is a necessity in order to prepare the church for the return of the Lord -- but only in order to make his argument. He provides no scripture to support this assumption, he simply makes the assumption and then says "it therefore follows..."

3. He seems to think the marriage supper of the Lamb must precede the return of the Lord. Yet, where does the Bible actually place the marriage supper in terms of the chronology of events?

First, let's establish when the Lord returns:

Does everyone see in this the clear, visible return of the Lord? Do you see how it initiates His wrath? "For the great day of His wrath has come..."

Now let's see when the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place...

Okay, now notice that the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place AFTER "He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication" And to what does this refer?

So the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place AFTER the seven bowls judgments and AFTER the harlot (the great city) is judged and destroyed.

Now, let's take a closer look at the description of the seven bowl judgments...

So the author is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The text clearly shows that the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place LONG after the Day of the Lord and the initiation of God's wrath upon the earth. Yet he somehow manages to believe -- without any scriptural support whatsoever -- that the marriage supper of the Lamb must take place before the return of the Lord, and therefore - well, therefore who knows what? His chronology is so far removed from what the Bible clearly says that his conclusions don't even begin to make sense.

He has to ignore the seven bowls completely and then spiritualize the judgment of the harlot to be the bema judgement, even though the Bible describes the harlot clearly as something else. So his argument rests purely on his own deluded fantasy and has no basis in scripture.

 

The arguments on this site are weaker than restaurant tea (brewed in luke-warm water). </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, i think better than
that. I like this point:

"I have never, that I can recall, heard a pre-trib rapturist use the nomenclature of "secret" rapture to describe our view. I have only heard the phrase "secret" rapture as a pejorative term used exclusively by anti-pretribulationists. Why? Apparently they enjoy fighting with a straw man."

Wasn't "Christian" first used as a
pejorative by anti-Christians?
Wasn't "Baptist" first used as a
pejorative by un-Baptists?

Hummmmm.....

 

Strawman: " ... some suggest they are "caught up"
after the Tribulation only to return immediately
with the Lord. This arrangement, however, leaves
little or no time for the wedding!"

Npetreley: "1. Assuming there weren't so many other thing
s wrong with his chronology, who does the author think
he is that he can presume how time passes in heaven?
Not enough time for the wedding? Why? Does God have
to wait for the cake order to be completed and
the invitations to go out? "

Tee Hee I agree with you. I've done the arithemetic.
There is NOT time (as we know it) to have the Wedding
Supper of the Lamb and the Bema Seat of Christ during the
seven years.

--------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal,
and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun
became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon
became like blood.
13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig
tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up,
and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men,
the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men,
every slave and every free man, hid themselves
in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on
us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on
the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of His wrath has come,
and who is able to stand?"
-----------------------------------------------------

Does everyone see in this the clear, visible return of the Lord?
Do you see how it initiates His wrath?

NO, i do not see the clear, visible return of
the Lord. I already argued this before in this topic.
Yes, the beginning of the wrath of God is
clearly shown here.
The earthquake starting the Tribulation Period shown
here in Revelation 6 shakes the mountains and islands.
The earthquake when Jesus Returns flattens the
mountains and islands.

The marriage of the Lamb takes place in Revelation
19:7-10. The Glorious Appearing of Jesus,
the Showing up of Jesus as KING OF KING and LORD OF LORDS
is told in Revelation 19:11-21.
And there is even Brother Npetreley in Verse 14
riding a white horse with his white robe on.

 

Well said Brother Edwards!!


Rev. 19:11-16
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called
Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name
written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen,
white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall
rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God.
19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD
OF LORDS.

Rev. 19:8
"To her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev. 19:14
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Notice the fine linen white and clean is the righteousness of saints, which are in heaven.

We will then return with the Lord to the earth, and He will destroy the wicked and establish the Millennial Kingdom, and His saints will reign with Him on earth for one thousand years (Rev. 20:1-7).


Zech. 12:10
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of
grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall
mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in
bitterness for his firstborn.


Zech. 14:4-9
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the
east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and
half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto
Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of
Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come
to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward
the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his
name one.


------------------
A servant of Christ,
Drew

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

 

Tim, good point!

Not everyone is in agreement about whether Revelation should be interpreted as a straight-forward sequential chronology. Revelation consists of a series of visions, of which some appear to recapitualate, to an extent, earlier visions in the book. This can be seen in the repetition of earthquakes and the cosmic signs. It is evident, as you point out, that Rev. 6:12-17 takes place after the tribulation, especially when one compares this passage with Matt. 24:29-31.

 

How many times in the end times scenario do you allow for "the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth?"

Because I see it referenced to many times in the Scripture but only in conjunction with the day of the Lord.

De Haan says that the great tribulation is over at the signs in the heavens, you say that it is just starting. Who is right?

In the love of Christ,
Tim </font>[/QUOTE]De Haan is right, obviously. He's wrong about when the rapture occurs, but you can't deny the plain, simple clear language of Jesus that the signs initiating the Day of the Lord occur immediately after the great tribulation. This nullifies Ed's view entirely, and creates a huge problem for the pre-trib web site.

Does Rev 19 show Jesus returning with His church? Yes, it does. But here's the difference. Revelation 6 reads like a real description of a real event - there is no poetry there. It describes the same celestial signs given in Joel, Isaiah, Matthew, etc. It describes the reaction of the nations on earth.

Revelation 19, on the other hand, reads like a poetic summary. For example:

Now, does anyone think a real sword will come out of the mouth of Jesus? Does anyone think we'll be riding white horses down from heaven? Will He tread a real winepress?

Speaking of the winepress, that is the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of the Almighty God, and the preceding chapters (the bowl judgments, etc.) have all been a description of the wrath of God. So this section cannot possibly be the initiation of the wrath of God.

Once again, the pre-tribbers take a poetic passage and insert all the meaning they want into it, while ignoring the literal passages that contradict their conclusions.

 

Boy, you all say my site is human reasoning and speculation based??? I've some questions for you:

Question #1: If the rapture occurs at the second coming, who will populate the millennium?

Question #2: Why is the rapture missing from Rev. 19:11-23?

Question #3: Who is gathered first, the wicked (Matt. 13:30, 49) or the righteous (1 Thess. 4:16-17)?

Question #4 Since Christians will be rewarded (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4, Luke 14:14), how can the 24 elders in heaven already have their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10) if the rapture hasn't taken place?

Question #5: Why do the sheep and goats need to be separated if they are already separated by a rapture at the second coming (Matt. 25:31-33)?

Question #6: At the end of the millennium, where do the non-Christians come from(Rev. 20:7-10)?

Question #7: How can Jesus return from the wedding if the wedding hasn't taken place (Luke 12:36)?

Question #8: Who is the "one who restrains" that must be taken out of the way before the antichrist is revealed (2 Thess. 2:7)?

Question #9: Jesus promised He would prepare a place for Christians in heaven, then would return to take us there (John 14:2-3). According to the post-tribulation theory, Jesus returns to earth and stays here with the Church. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there?

Having been studying eschatology for a good length of time now I no longer believe in coincidences. Care to explain the OBVIOUS parallels between the explanation of the Rapture by Paul, the doctrine of the Pre-Trib Rapture AND the traditional Jewish Wedding ceremony (process)?

Maranatha!

In Christ
Joe

 

Two unrelated issues.

Because it doesn't occur then.

Matthew 13:30 is a parable. It is not wise to base a doctrine on an fictional illustration. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 doesn't say who is gathered first. What it says it that we who are still alive (as opposed to those who have fallen asleep) will be gathered with the trumpet, etc., which is a good parallel description of what happens AFTER the Day of the Lord begins, as described in Matthew 24.

For this to make any sense, you have to assume that nobody wears crowns except the raptured church. Didn't it even occur to you that the 24 elders could represent someone else who wears crowns? This is typical pre-trib reasoning -- start with some bizarre arbitrary assumption and then apply it to the text and say, "See? It must be that way!"

Again, you are developing a doctrine based on a ficitional illustration (parable), which is unwise at best. Parables illustrate a concept or principle, they don't detail out a literal plan.

They are the people of the earth who are deceived by satan after satan is released. It says so plainly in the text.

In context...

Again, this is an illustration of a concept. Notice the word like? It says "like men waiting". That's called a simile, a poetic figurative illustration.

Even if you want to believe it is a literal illustration for a pre-trib rapture, this illustration would contradict it. He's telling them to be ready (for His return and the rapture) like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet. How could he have had the marriage supper of the Lamb (with the raptured saints) and then tell them to be ready to be raptured when He returns from it? You take far too many figurative illustrations of principles literally, and ignore the literal passages entirely.

This is a subject of debate, but IMO it is the archangel Michael.

There you have Michael standing down (the word translated "arise" could also be translated standing down or standing still), after which the great tribulation begins.

I never heard that posttrib theory and I don't subscribe to it, so I won't defend it.