The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

Or, put another way, since 80% of nothing is the same amount as 20% of nothing, 100% of non-pre-tribbers are still waiting for any percent of something in favor of pre-trib.

 

Or, put another way, since 80% of nothing is the same amount as 20% of nothing, 100% of non-pre-tribbers are still waiting for any percent of something in favor of pre-trib. </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly!

 

Whatever variety or flavor of endtimes theology a person believes, the only facts we have are in the scriptures.

From what we understand, Jesus will return.

AC 1:10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

REV 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Some actually believe that Jesus has already returned. I know a person that I used to work with that believed that Jesus returned in 70 A.D.

Jesus makes it clear that His second coming will come at a time when people don't expect it.

MT 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

MT 24:42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Although most of the endtimes theologies won't admit it, their teachings are in direct contrast to what Jesus taught. They say that they DO KNOW when Jesus will return. They say they don't know the day or the hour, but if you study their teachings, they are really saying that they know to a great level of understanding when Jesus will return.
I think most of us will be surprised when Jesus does return. Most will not be expecting it. Even Christians.

If you study the scriptures around endtimes theology, the main point is that we be ready for the return of the Lord Jesus, not that we know when it is. And this is the point that, from what I see, almost nobody teaches.

MT 24:42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
MT 24:45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, `My master is staying away a long time,' 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

Tim too: "All your arguments
with Scripture come from your
pretrib presupposition.
I don't see ... "

Yes, you don't see. yhou are blind
You have been blinded by your anti-pretrib
presuppositions. You cannot see that yhour
anti-pretrib presuppositions blind you to pretrib
truth. Pretrib truth so prevalant that they
have demolished your title. The title should be
changed to THE BIBLICAL PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE
Pretrib truths have demolished
the 7 issues you brought forth in the lead-in post.

 

I'll type this post slow, so it will be
easier to understand

1 Thessalonains 2:1 speaks of two
SEPERATE EVENTS connected by "and":

1. Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2. Our gathering together to Him

(Well, if you se the "and" here connecting two equal
descriptions for the same set of events, then
you won't agree with me, and your opinion
will not be the same as mine)

I looked for these two items (event)
in the text following.

Well, i had no problem finding
"1. Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" again.
It is the same as "day of Christ" in verse 2 & 3.
But where is #2? Paul not going to
mention it again?

Well Jesus Himself spake of a gathering
in Matthew 24:31. Matthew 24:31 is divorced
from Matthew 24:29 by the polysyndeton
"and" that starts Matthew 24:31.
Interesting, Paul speaks of it himself,
in 2 Thessalonians 2:1. But where else does
Paul speak of "2. Our gathering together to Him" ?

I believe it is the "falling away" in the KJV,
the "departure" in seven pre-KJV English translations.
I mean, didn't these translatorors know about
the perfectly good English word "Apostasy"?
Of course they did, but they choose NOT to use it.
Why? Maybe they saw the "2. Our gathering together to Him"
there!

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 we find
a wealthy view of the rapture/resurrection.
In fact "rapture" comes from the Latin
version of the "caught up" in verse 17.
So we shall be "caught up" (raptutred)!
Rotate the camera 180º and we are "falling away"
from this old world as a fig tree drops its figs.
Praise Jesus!! When Jesus comes to get me I'm
going to fall away from this old world full of
trails and tribulations right into the arms
of Jesus. I'm going to make my departure from this
world and the AC = antichrist, will make himself
known to those unsaved persons left behind.

Here are the order of events:


1. Our gathering together to Him,
the rapture, the falling away, the departure
2. the revelation of the AC,
the start of the Tribulation
3. Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
destruction of the AC, day of Christ

Didn't i say that about eight pages ago

 

Okay, people. It is time to grow up! This is not a playground, and we are not arguing over whose dad can beat whom!

Let's be honest. NNE can absolutely prove beyond any shadow of doubt that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. And, to be perfectly honest, NNE can prove that there will be any post-tribulation rapture (or pre-wrath, or any other).

We do know that Jesus Christ is coming back for those who belong to Him through faith. Does everyone agree with this? (If not, maybe you should try The Pagan Teahouse chat room ) We do not know the time, day, or year of this forthcoming event, but we do know that He is coming one day (we have His word on it, and that is good enough for me).

I believe in a pre-tribulation, pre-millinium rapture. I can quote Scripture to back it up, but as has been pointed out, it is with my presuppositions intact. Some one else could use those same Scriptures to argue against it. So who is right?

THERE IS NO WAY TO PROVE EITHER SIDE AT THIS PERSENT DAY AND AGE!!! UNTIL CHRIST RETURNS, ALL WE CAN DO IS ARGUE AND CALL EACH OTHER NAMES!!! WHAT PART OF THIS IS GLORIFYING GOD???

Each of us is entitled to our own opinion, not to be bludgeoned with that of another. I agree that we must live in anticipation, but not just in high hopes of being pulled out of life's unpleasant circumstances. We ALL need to be out in the field, working FOR our Lord to try to find all those whom He knows are to be His! What will it matter, if He does suddenly appear, if we agreed on the matter or not? What will matter is that we were found ready, and with a harvest of souls for the Lord. Even if we live out our days and He doesn't appear before the chilling hand of death taps us on the shoulder, will it matter that we had this MINOR point of theology right if we have done nothing with the talents that the Lord has given us?

How many have we led to a saving encounter with our Lord? How many souls are dying this very hour without Christ? Are we more worried about this petty dispute over something that cannot be nailed down than about reaching a lost and dying world?

It is time to grow up!!!

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Npetreley: "Assuming it is
a response to my post, I
have these comments: ... "

Yes, your assumption is correct.
And thank you for forthright comments
(in contranst to elsewhere & elsewho
posts which are really wishy-washy )

Seems strange to me that the various doctrines
seem to hing on simple words!
1. the "and" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1
2. the initial "and" in Matthew 24:31
3. "first" in Revelation 20:5
4. Prophetic "day"
and other simple concepts:
5. chapter division in 1 Thessalonains 4 & 5
6. the refferant of "he" for Daniel 9:27

 

Tim too: "7. The problem with the calls to persever
in Revelation (Rev 13:10, Rev 14:12)."

While Revelation 4-21 are largely sequential
in nature, there are some exceptions.
Obviously from the text Revelation 14:9-13
are out of sequence.
The angel speaker in 14:9-11 speak of
the consequences of taking the MOB (mark of the beast)
-- such consequences paid at the
END of the Tribulation Period.

Revelation 14:12-13 seems to be a flash back to the time John saw
the revelation. As such, the promise in Revelation 12:13
is for the whole church age, not just the Tribulation
Period. If you die in the Lord BEFORE the
pretrib rapture, you will indeed be blessed.

Revelation 13:10 is a call for preservance
to the Jewish Israeli elect saints
of which we are NOT.
This message is NOT for we largely gentile
(but some Messanic Jews) born-again Christian elect saints.

 

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as:
2. Tribulation time - is the same as:
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!

 

The scriptures I have quoted need no presuppositions. They detail events in a clear chronological order:

1. Abomination of desolation
2. Great Tribulation
3. Signs of the Day of the Lord
4. Sealing of the 144,000
5. Rapture
6. Wrath

No presuppositions are necessary to demonstrate that order of events from scripture. In addition, this order conforms to two important Biblical principles:

1. We will have tribulation
2. We are not appointed to wrath

 

I agree that it is more important to be ready than to know when Jesus returns, and I also agree that we cannot know exactly when Jesus will return.

But if you are saying the return of Jesus is imminent (meaning it could happen even now without any preceding signs), then that contradicts the Bible. Indeed, the whole discourse starts with the question:

Jesus never even hints at saying, "there will be no sign of my coming." Instead, He not only comes right out and says what the sign of His coming will be, he tells you WHEN the sign will occur (immediately after the tribulation of those days), and that the sign precedes the rapture:

Jesus even gives them the sign of the impending great tribulation:

A pre-tribber's objection would be: If we are raptured immediately after the great tribulation, and we know the great tribulation is 3 1/2 years long, then once the Abomination of Desolation occurs, we can know the (almost) exact time of the return of Jesus, right?

Wrong. We can know it will have to be sometime within 3 1/2 years or thereabouts, but that's all we know, because the great tribulation is cut short at some unspecified time.

Finally, does Jesus say that we cannot possibly know when this will all come about, and therefore we shouldn't concern ourselves with looking for the signs? No, He says quite the opposite:

See all what things? If there are no preceding signs, then this advice would be nonsense.

 

npetreley: "The scriptures I have quoted need no presuppositions. They detail events in a clear chronological order:

1. Abomination of desolation
2. Great Tribulation
3. Signs of the Day of the Lord
4. Sealing of the 144,000
5. Rapture
6. Wrath"

Interesting presuppositions you have.

I read the same scriptures and find this order:

5. Rapture
6. Wrath (AKA: Tribulation period)
4. Sealing of the 144,000
1. Abomination of desolation
2. Great Tribulation
3. Signs of the Day of the Lord

Come on, you can't tell the difference
between the "light" earthquake
(I compute it to be 15.0 on the Ricktor scale)
and the heavey earthquake that comes
with the Second Advent of Jesus
(I'd say 18.0)

BTW, not only do i NOT put my suppositions
into my scripture reading; i don't speak
English with a accent either

HEre is my working timeline:

Expanded pretrib timeline:

0. church age continues &lt;--- YOU ARE HERE!

1. rapture/resurrection

2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

2a. Starting events
2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty

2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

2c. the mid-tribulation events
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8)
2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18)
2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
----- (Rev 12:1-6)

2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
------- (Rev 16:12-16)
2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18)
2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

(2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event

4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

5. new heaven & new earth



[ September 12, 2003, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

Oh Brother npetreley, once again you
you speak as though there are problems with
the pretribulation rapture view, and there
are none. Your supposed pretrib difficulaties
are really difficulties of pretrib versus
your presupposted anti-pretrib conception.

Npetreley: "But if you are saying the return of Jesus
is imminent (meaning it could happen even now
without any preceding signs), then that contradicts the Bible."

Actually the Bible confirms that. Yes, i am saying:
the return of Jesus is imminent
(meaning it could happen even now without
any preceding signs), then that contradicts the Bible.

But, what i mean by "return of Jesus" is not what you
mean by "return of Jesus". I believe Jesus is going to
come get me before the Tribualtion Period and take me
to heaven. Then later the same prophetic day (7-years)
Jesus is going to return and wup AC's butt.
Yes, that is all in the Bible and i've explained it
time and time again. And yes we will soon fill this
topic and have to start a new topic:
The Biblical Pretribulation Raptue #2.

npetreley: " Indeed, the whole discourse starts with the question:"

quote:
--------------------------------------------------
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples
came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will
these things be? And what will be the sign of
Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
--------------------------------------------------

The presuppositions of Brother Npetreley make this
ONE "the question". In fact, there are three questions.
Fortunatly, Jesus answers all three of them.

1. when will these things be?
(When will the Temple be destroyed?)

2. What will be the sign of your coming?

3. What will be the sign of the end of the age?

Of course, i've had this conversation over and over.
I even told my side of the story uptopic
(hardly anybody disputed me then????)

------------------------------

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-20

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:21-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-20

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:21-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes not only the
immediate time before 70AD when the
AOD = abomination of desolation happened
(Matthe 24:15-2) but also all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.

---------------------
I need to go to work.
I am NOT through responding.

 

Or maybe they (the translators) were thinking in terms of departing from the faith (which is "apostasy" by definition). That's consistent with what Paul wrote elsewhere to Timothy: "Now the Spirit expressly says in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons" (I Timothy 4:1).

So let's see...were the translators thinking "departure", as in "departing from the faith", which is consistent with what Paul wrote elsewhere...or were they thinking about some departure from earth before the Antichrist/tribulation, a teaching that was not to be found in the rest of the Holy Writ and which contradicted the teachings of the church for 1800 years...Hmmm...boy, I just don't know...

 

I'm glad you agree that Matthew 24:31 describes the rapture. Now let's see where Jesus puts it in the chronological series of events. (Emphasis mine.)

So this all happens immediately after the tribulation of those days. And to what is Jesus referring? The description of the great tribulation, which precedes these verses.

So again, we have a clear chronology provided by the words "immedately after...then...this and this and that":

1. Abomination of Desolation
2. Great tribulation
3. Signs of the Day of the Lord
4. (from Revelation: the sealing of the 144,000)
5. The rapture (the trump, and our being gathered to Him)
6. Wrath

 

Welcome to the circus.

 

Hello, Brother Trotter!

Three things I've learned in my 19-years
on the internet!!

1. Never question the motives of others.
Likely I don't have the authority nor the knowledge
to dispute the motives of others. Even
if I have the Spiritual Gift of Knowledge (Knowing
by God what cannot be known by humans)
I still do NOT have the authority to
judge the motives of others.
Judging is a God thing; authority to question
the motives of others is a God thing.

2. Never question the salvation of others.
Same reasons as in #1. Only God knows whether
a person is saved or not saved.

3. Never question the serve of others. They
are working for God not for me. Same
lecture as in #1.
I've not got the knowledge nor the authority to
question the service to God of others.

4. BB(bulletin board)s are not classrooms
so i can pray anytime i want to pray.



Oops, that is four things -- never mind

Heavenly Father, i pick up my brother Trotter
and ask that you might bless him, his family,
and his ministry. Amen.

 

2. Great tribulation
3. Signs of the Day of the Lord
4. (from Revelation: the sealing of the 144,000)

That doesn't make any sense because the
144,000 are sealed to protect them from the
effects of the Tribulation Period.
You have them being sealed when the
Great Tribulation Period is over ???