The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

[Tim too]

Originally posted by TFCDR:
This is how I see it, the "Golden Rule of Interpretation":

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary, literal meaning, unless the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise.

So to answer your question, yes I do. If it's symbolic in nature look to Scripture for it's definition for there you will find it. Simple.

In Christ
Joe

So do you believe that rapture/resurrection is pictured or symbolized Revelation 4:1? I hear that a lot and have seen it here in Brother Ed's postings.

After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. Revelation 4:1-2 NIV

If you believe this is a type or symbolic of the Rapture then "Golden Rule of Interpretation" only seems to apply when convenient.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[TFCDR]

Sorry, please delete this, the flood control messed me up.

[ September 18, 2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: TFCDR ]

 

[TFCDR]

MY ANSWER PART I (questions 1-3)

1. There is a problem with the concept of wrath vs. tribulation. One of the key tenets of the pre-trib position is that God did not appoint the church to suffer wrath. (1 Thessalonians 5:9) This is true the church is not appointed to suffer God’s wrath. There is a difference in God’s wrath and the Biblical concept of tribulation. Wrath is from God on disobedient men and tribulation is what the church suffers at the hands of the world. Jesus said that in this world we would have tribulation. (John 16:33) Notice that in Revelation the wrath of God is not poured out until after the tribulation, after the sixth seal is broken. (Revelation 6:15-17, Matt 24:29)

First, contextually you are mistaken. Remember that the whole numbering system is not in the original manuscrips. So in essence 1 Thess 5:9 is a continuation of what Paul is talking about in 1 Thess 4:13-18. The Rapture. I used to waffle on the meaning of wrath hear as well until you consider that. Furthermore when you look at the promise in Rev 3:10 you see the same contextual statement. Furthermore consider this:

“For God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ” (I Thessalonians 5:9). But the tribulation period is the time when the wrath of God is poured out on unbelievers. When the seals are opened in Revelation, the nations are shaking their fists in the face of God. They are actually shouting out, “Hide us from the wrath of the Lamb who sits on the throne!” They know that hey are under the wrath of the Lamb. Still, they do not repent.


I would remind you, the Church is not the object of the wrath of Christ. She may be disciplined by Christ. She may be judged by Christ. God may allow us to go through suffering, heartache, problems and even persecution and martyrdom, but not His wrath. When Jesus died on the cross, He took the wrath of God for us. In those final, terrible moments on the cross, when He shouted, “My God, why have You forsaken Me?” it was because the wrath of God fell on Him at that moment. Jesus died in our place, taking the wrath and judgment for us (Isaiah 53:4-6).


The Church does not go through the time of tribulation. In fact, those who are suffering are described in the Book of Revelation as unbelievers. They are symbolized by the great harlot (Revelation 17), whereas the Church is the Bride of Christ. She is not told anywhere in the New Testa-ment to be watching for the tribulation to begin. Rather, believers are told to “keep watching” for Jesus to come for them (Matthew 24:42; John 14:1-3).

2. Signs in the heavens. There are two major signs that accompany the return of the Lord. After these signs Jesus said He would send His angels into the four corners of the world to gather His elect. (Isai 13:9-11, Joel 2:31, Matt 24:29-31, Mk 13:24-28, Lk 21:25-28, Acts 2:20-21, Rev 6:12)

Ok, now show me any verse referring to the Rapture that a) discusses these signs in conjunction with it and b) comparing the verses referring to the Second Coming and the Rapture we have two different descriptions. In the Rapture we have the dead in christ and those who remain (Church age believers) rising to meet the Lord in the air. Did you catch that...rising to meet the Lord in the air....NOT being collected by angels. In the Second Coming we have Christ coming WITH His saints, in the Rapture we have the Lord coming FOR His saints. Two unique and distinct events.

3. The phrase Paul uses to describe our being gathered to Christ is “the day of the Lord.” (1 Cor 5:4, 2 Cor 1:14, 1 Thes 5:2, 2 Thes 2:2-3 This day is tied in scripture to the signs that appear in the heavens. (Isai 13:6-10, Joel 2:31, Zeph 1:14-15, Acts 2:20, 2 Peter 3:10) There is no mention of the word rapture in the Bible but there is the day of the Lord.

Ah, but this is because your understanding of the "day of the Lord" is incorrect. In 1 Thess 2:2 you will note it reads the "day of Christ is at hand". Apparently this is an transliterational error and should read "day of the Lord is at hand". At first look one might think this wording difference to be insignificant. Actually it's quite the contrary.

Scripture points out the significance of the term "day of the Lord". There are 29 verses using the phrase: Isa_2:12; Isa_13:6; Isa_13:9; Isa_34:8; Jer_46:10; Lam_2:22; Eze_13:5; Eze_30:3; Joe_1:15; Joe_2:1; Joe_2:11; Joe_2:31; Joe_3:14; Amo_5:18; Amo_5:20; Oba_1:15; Zep_1:7; Zep_1:8; Zep_1:14; Zep_1:18; Zep_2:2; Zep_2:3; Zec_14:1; Mal_4:5; Act_2:20; 1Co_5:5; 2Co_1:14; 1Th_5:2; 2Pe_3:10;

What is significant is that it doesn't refer to a single 24 hour period of time, but rather a period of time in which God pours forth His wrath and later his blessings.

So to the Thessalonians (and the Christians of that time), the "day of the Lord" meant the final time period of human history (remember that Revelation had not been written yet....they had Daniel, Isaiah and others that talked about the end times.

(continued in next post)

 

[TFCDR]

PART II

4. There are a couple of problems with the pretrib interpretation of 2 Thes 2:1-12. First, Paul says that we will not even be gathered to the Lord until the great apostasy comes and the Antichrist is revealed. According to the pretrib view we are not going to be here when the anti-christ is revealed because his appearing is in the middle of the 7 years of the
tribulation. If the pretrib view of the Holy Spirit being restrainer in this passage is correct and the restrainer is removed when the church is raptured who is going to draw all of those people who are saved out of the tribulation? This passage alone is enough to cause someone to have serious questions about the pretrib rapture.

For this go here for a complete study on the restrainer: http://www.tribulationforces.com/therestrainer.shtml

5. Problems with numbers. The pretrib view of the rapture says that the raptured church is shown in Revelation 5:8-14. There is a problem with the numbers here. In verse 11 there is given a number for those are worshipping, ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands and thousands. However, the number of those saved out of the great tribulation in Revelation 7:9-14 is so big that no one is able to number it. So essentially, 10,000 X 10,000 = 100,000,000 plus thousands and thousands from the time Christ went back to the Father’s right hand until the rapture, but then in three and half years more people come to Christ than can be numbered. It doesn’t add up.

I've never heard that nor would I remotely prescribe to that. The passage says "angels" so it means "angels". The 24 Elders are what represent specific chosen people selected from the church at that point. Note the crowns...that is what is being talked about when people say these verses show the raptured church....the angels are angels.

6. Problem with the names in the Revelation 5:8-14 passage. This passage calls the 10,000 X 10,000 and thousands and thousands “angels.” We are not angels. This cannot be the church. However, the innumerable group of people that are worshipping the Lamb in Revelation 7:9-14 are called the “the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” This great number of people is definitely the church.

Again see question 5, this is a repeat of that question. Your understanding of the pre-Trib position is incorrect. Those referred to in Revelation 7:9-14 are those who came to Christ during the Tribulation. They are not the Church as the church left before the Tribulation. These martyrs were a result of the work of the 144,000 witnesses called out by God to spread the Gospel.

7. The problem with the calls to persevere in Revelation. (Rev 13:10, Rev 14:12) Both of the references listed are given after describing the antichrist and the mark. Why would there be such warnings if we were not going to be here?

God wants no one to fail, He wants everyone to return to himself. You are making a conclusion based on the false assumption that the church remains. The church is not mentioned between Rev 4-19...and is seen returning with Christ in Rev 19:11. Again:

I would remind you, the Church is not the object of the wrath of Christ. She may be disciplined by Christ. She may be judged by Christ. God may allow us to go through suffering, heartache, problems and even persecution and martyrdom, but not His wrath. When Jesus died on the cross, He took the wrath of God for us. In those final, terrible moments on the cross, when He shouted, “My God, why have You forsaken Me?” it was because the wrath of God fell on Him at that moment. Jesus died in our place, taking the wrath and judgment for us (Isaiah 53:4-6).


The Church does not go through the time of tribulation. In fact, those who are suffering are described in the Book of Revelation as unbelievers. They are symbolized by the great harlot (Revelation 17), whereas the Church is the Bride of Christ. She is not told anywhere in the New Testa-ment to be watching for the tribulation to begin. Rather, believers are told to “keep watching” for Jesus to come for them (Matthew 24:42; John 14:1-3).

Finally, which position would be most to Satan’s advantage? If the rapture is true then there is no damage done by believing otherwise. If you are a Christian you are still going to be raptured. However if the rapture is not true there is real danger. Believers are not going to be looking the antichrist or the mark. They could be deceived into taking the mark. Those who take the mark are under the same judgment as unbelievers.

This comment is nothing more than demagoguery. Show me any verse that says any of the following...that we will know who the antichrist is? That we are to be looking for him? That the church is to be looking for the Tribulation? etc.

Absolutely not...all throughout the epistles it is clear we are to be looking for Christ! Furthermore we are to be looking for Christ to return at any moment for we do not know and are not told when that will be...only the father knows. Once the Tribulation starts ANYONE with any sense will be able to predict the exact day when the Second COming will occur just by aligning the events of the Tribulation by what's laid out in Revelation. Since that's the case, and the Rapture needs nothing to preceed it (no signs, no events etc.) it is clear the Rapture occurs in an imminent fashion and it's a distinct event from the Second Coming. Furthermore show me a pre-Trib person who doesn't know what is going to go down in the Tribulation and I'll show you someone who has no clue. The logic you use in this comment is ludicrous as I know the events of the trib as well if not better than most post-tribbers...we don't teach a concept of "don't worry about learning about Revelation, you won't be here so you don't need to know it"...BUNK!! If anything knowing the events of the Tribulation reinforces the need and desire to evangelize to allow people to be spared from it.

Tim, my brother, you are misinformed about the pre-Trib Rapture. You may have at one time maintained that position, but I don't think you fully understood that position. These arguments you present against pre-trib are born out of not understand the Bible as literally written. The failings of the post-Trib position however are greivous and cannot be so rectified by Scripture.

In Christ
Joe

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by TFCDR:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />1. There is a problem with the concept of wrath vs. tribulation. One of the key tenets of the pre-trib position is that God did not appoint the church to suffer wrath. (1 Thessalonians 5:9) This is true the church is not appointed to suffer God’s wrath. There is a difference in God’s wrath and the Biblical concept of tribulation. Wrath is from God on disobedient men and tribulation is what the church suffers at the hands of the world. Jesus said that in this world we would have tribulation. (John 16:33) Notice that in Revelation the wrath of God is not poured out until after the tribulation, after the sixth seal is broken. (Revelation 6:15-17, Matt 24:29)

First, contextually you are mistaken. Remember that the whole numbering system is not in the original manuscrips. So in essence 1 Thess 5:9 is a continuation of what Paul is talking about in 1 Thess 4:13-18. The Rapture. </font>[/QUOTE]Contextually you are mistaken. We use the Bible to understand the Bible. I am posting all the references that deal with tribulation and wrath. Anyone who cares to look them up can see that you are obviously overlooking what the Bible consistently describes wrath and tribulation as.

WRATH

Ge 39:19 49:7, Ex 15:7 22:24 32:10-12, Le 10:6, Nu 1:53 11:33 16:46 18:5 25:11, De 9:7,22 11:17 29:23,28 32:27, Jos 9:20 22:20, 1Sa 28:18, 2Sa 11:20, 2Ki 22:13,17 23:26, 1Ch 27:24, 2Ch 12:7,12 19:2,10 24:18 28:11,13 29:8,10 30:8 32:25-26 34:21, 2Ch 34:25 36:16, Ezr 5:12 7:23 8:22 10:14, Ne 13:18, Es 1:18 2:1 3:5 7:7,10, Job 5:2 14:13 16:9 19:11,29 20:23,28 21:20,30 32:2,5 36:13,18, Job 40:11 42:7, Ps 2:5,12 21:9 37:8 38:1 55:3 58:9 59:13 76:10 78:31,38,49 79:6, Ps 85:3 88:7,16 89:46 90:7,9,11 95:11 102:10 106:23,40 110:5, Ps 124:3 138:7, Pr 11:4,23 12:16 14:29,35 15:1 16:14 19:12,19 21:14,24 24:18, Pr 27:3-4 29:8 30:33, Ec 5:17, Isa 9:19 10:6 13:9,13 14:6 16:6 54:8 60:10, Jer 7:29 10:10 18:20 21:5 32:37 44:8 48:30 50:13, La 2:2 3:1, Eze 7:12,14,19 13:15 21:31 22:21,31 38:19, Ho 5:10 13:11, Am 1:11, Na 1:2, Hab 3:2,8, Zep 1:15,18, Zec 7:12 8:14, Mt 3:7, Lu 3:7 4:28 21:23, Joh 3:36, Ac 19:28, Ro 1:18 2:5,8 4:15 5:9 9:22 12:19 13:4-5, Ga 5:20, Eph 2:3 4:26,31 5:6 6:4, Col 3:6,8, 1Th 1:10 2:16 5:9, 1Ti 2:8, Heb 3:11 4:3 11:27, Jas 1:19-20, Re 6:16-17 11:18 12:12 14:8,10,19 15:1,7 16:1,19 18:3 19:15

TRIBULATION

De 4:30, Jud 10:14, 1Sa 26:24, Mt 13:21 24:21,29, Mr 13:24, Joh 16:33, Ac 14:22, Ro 2:9 5:3 8:35 12:12, 2Co 1:4 7:4, 1Th 3:4, 2Th 1:6, Re 1:9 2:9,22 7:14

Wrath is consistently used to describe God anger against THE UNGODLY and Tribulation is consistently used to describe the sufferings that BELIEVERS endure at the hands of the UNGODLY.

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Furthermore when you look at the promise in Rev 3:10 you see the same contextual statement.

The promise to “keep you from” can also be translated “keep you through” in Revelation 3:10.

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Furthermore consider this:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />“For God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ” (I Thessalonians 5:9). But the tribulation period is the time when the wrath of God is poured out on unbelievers. When the seals are opened in Revelation, the nations are shaking their fists in the face of God. They are actually shouting out, “Hide us from the wrath of the Lamb who sits on the throne!” They know that hey are under the wrath of the Lamb. Still, they do not repent.

I would remind you, the Church is not the object of the wrath of Christ. She may be disciplined by Christ. She may be judged by Christ. God may allow us to go through suffering, heartache, problems and even persecution and martyrdom, but not His wrath. When Jesus died on the cross, He took the wrath of God for us. In those final, terrible moments on the cross, when He shouted, “My God, why have You forsaken Me?” it was because the wrath of God fell on Him at that moment. Jesus died in our place, taking the wrath and judgment for us (Isaiah 53:4-6).

The Church does not go through the time of tribulation. </font>[/QUOTE]It is amazing that you will describe all of the difficulties the Church goes through as “suffering, heartache, problems and even persecution and martyrdom,” Yet you carefully avoid calling it what Jesus calls it, Tribulation. All of your arguments (some of which I did not re-post) unravel if you take what the Bible says about Tribulation and Wrath instead of redefining them to fit your theology. WE ARE IN THE TRIBULATION AND IT IS ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE.

Jesus said, “In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

2. Signs in the heavens. There are two major signs that accompany the return of the Lord. After these signs Jesus said He would send His angels into the four corners of the world to gather His elect. (Isai 13:9-11, Joel 2:31, Matt 24:29-31, Mk 13:24-28, Lk 21:25-28, Acts 2:20-21, Rev 6:12)

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Ok, now show me any verse referring to the Rapture that a) discusses these signs in conjunction with it and b) comparing the verses referring to the Second Coming and the Rapture we have two different descriptions. In the Rapture we have the dead in christ and those who remain (Church age believers) rising to meet the Lord in the air. Did you catch that...rising to meet the Lord in the air....NOT being collected by angels. In the Second Coming we have Christ coming WITH His saints, in the Rapture we have the Lord coming FOR His saints. Two unique and distinct events.

There are no verses that refer this to the rapture, because the rapture is a made-up concept. These signs are consistently shown preceding the Second Coming or the Day of The Lord.

3. The phrase Paul uses to describe our being gathered to Christ is “the day of the Lord.” (1 Cor 5:4, 2 Cor 1:14, 1 Thes 5:2, 2 Thes 2:2-3 This day is tied in scripture to the signs that appear in the heavens. (Isai 13:6-10, Joel 2:31, Zeph 1:14-15, Acts 2:20, 2 Peter 3:10) There is no mention of the word rapture in the Bible but there is the day of the Lord.

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Ah, but this is because your understanding of the "day of the Lord" is incorrect. In 1 Thess 2:2 you will note it reads the "day of Christ is at hand". Apparently this is an transliterational error and should read "day of the Lord is at hand". At first look one might think this wording difference to be insignificant. Actually it's quite the contrary.

Scripture points out the significance of the term "day of the Lord". There are 29 verses using the phrase: Isa_2:12; Isa_13:6; Isa_13:9; Isa_34:8; Jer_46:10; Lam_2:22; Eze_13:5; Eze_30:3; Joe_1:15; Joe_2:1; Joe_2:11; Joe_2:31; Joe_3:14; Amo_5:18; Amo_5:20; Oba_1:15; Zep_1:7; Zep_1:8; Zep_1:14; Zep_1:18; Zep_2:2; Zep_2:3; Zec_14:1; Mal_4:5; Act_2:20; 1Co_5:5; 2Co_1:14; 1Th_5:2; 2Pe_3:10;

What is significant is that it doesn't refer to a single 24 hour period of time, but rather a period of time in which God pours forth His wrath and later his blessings.

So you are suggesting 1. We need to reinterpret the phrase “day of Christ and NOT take it literally and 2. That the Thessalonians were worried that they had missed “a period of time in which God pours forth His wrath and later his blessings?” That doesn’t even make one ounce of sense.

4. There are a couple of problems with the pretrib interpretation of 2 Thes 2:1-12. First, Paul says that we will not even be gathered to the Lord until the great apostasy comes and the Antichrist is revealed. According to the pretrib view we are not going to be here when the anti-christ is revealed because his appearing is in the middle of the 7 years of the
tribulation. If the pretrib view of the Holy Spirit being restrainer in this passage is correct and the restrainer is removed when the church is raptured who is going to draw all of those people who are saved out of the tribulation? This passage alone is enough to cause someone to have serious questions about the pretrib rapture.

Originally posted by TFCDR:
For this go here for a complete study on the restrainer: http://www.tribulationforces.com/therestrainer.shtml

Your web page fails to answers the question of how we are not going to even be gathered to the Lord until the antichrist is revealed. Redefine Apostasy, redefine departure? Maybe the later translations translate the word as Apostasy because that is what it means from the context of the passage, and not the made-up concept of the rapture.

5. Problems with numbers. The pretrib view of the rapture says that the raptured church is shown in Revelation 5:8-14. There is a problem with the numbers here. In verse 11 there is given a number for those are worshipping, ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands and thousands. However, the number of those saved out of the great tribulation in Revelation 7:9-14 is so big that no one is able to number it. So essentially, 10,000 X 10,000 = 100,000,000 plus thousands and thousands from the time Christ went back to the Father’s right hand until the rapture, but then in three and half years more people come to Christ than can be numbered. It doesn’t add up.

6. Problem with the names in the Revelation 5:8-14 passage. This passage calls the 10,000 X 10,000 and thousands and thousands “angels.” We are not angels. This cannot be the church. However, the innumerable group of people that are worshipping the Lamb in Revelation 7:9-14 are called the “the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” This great number of people is definitely the church.

Originally posted by TFCDR:
I've never heard that nor would I remotely prescribe to that. The passage says "angels" so it means "angels". The 24 Elders are what represent specific chosen people selected from the church at that point. Note the crowns...that is what is being talked about when people say these verses show the raptured church....the angels are angels.

I am not sure by the wording of your response that you are not trying to hold on to this passage representing the church in Heaven. Look at what you say, “Note the crowns...that is what is being talked about when people say these verses show the raptured church.” Maybe you have heard of that before. Whether you’ve heard of it or not it is a consistently taught error of proponents of the pretrib rapture. Look at the quote below.

Knowing God Through Revelation – Radio Bible Class:
VISION OF THE THRONE (4:1-11)

As John gazed into the control center of the universe, his eyes first fell on a throne with the awesome Occupant who was "like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance" (4:3). Circling the throne was a rainbow, "in appearance like an emerald." Flashes of light and peals of thunder speak of the majesty and glory of the One who sits on the throne. The rainbow probably signifies His faithfulness and mercy.
Around the throne, members of redeemed humanity, crowned and in glorified bodies (symbolized by the 24 elders), join with a host of angelic beings (represented by the four living creatures) in praising God as the Creator of all. They praise Him for His character--"Holy, holy, holy." They praise Him for His power--"Lord God Almighty." They praise Him for His eternal changelessness--"who was and is and is to come" (v.8). They praise Him as the One who is worthy to receive glory, and honor, and power (v.11).
This is the God who sits at the control center of the universe! He alone is responsible for our existence. As our Creator, He deserves our endless praise!

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/sb248/sb248.html#page5

7. The problem with the calls to persevere in Revelation. (Rev 13:10, Rev 14:12) Both of the references listed are given after describing the antichrist and the mark. Why would there be such warnings if we were not going to be here?

Originally posted by TFCDR:
God wants no one to fail, He wants everyone to return to himself. You are making a conclusion based on the false assumption that the church remains. The church is not mentioned between Rev 4-19...and is seen returning with Christ in Rev 19:11…

…. She is not told anywhere in the New Testa-ment to be watching for the tribulation to begin. Rather, believers are told to “keep watching” for Jesus to come for them (Matthew 24:42; John 14:1-3).

Perhaps that is because we are in the tribulation and the next big event on the horizon is not the Biblically questionable rapture, but the event supported with tons of Biblical evidence and described as the DAY OF THE LORD.

Finally, which position would be most to Satan’s advantage? If the rapture is true then there is no damage done by believing otherwise. If you are a Christian you are still going to be raptured. However if the rapture is not true there is real danger. Believers are not going to be looking the antichrist or the mark. They could be deceived into taking the mark. Those who take the mark are under the same judgment as unbelievers.

Originally posted by TFCDR:
… Once the Tribulation starts ANYONE with any sense will be able to predict the exact day when the Second COming will occur just by aligning the events of the Tribulation by what's laid out in Revelation. Since that's the case, and the Rapture needs nothing to preceed it (no signs, no events etc.) it is clear the Rapture occurs in an imminent fashion and it's a distinct event from the Second Coming. Furthermore show me a pre-Trib person who doesn't know what is going to go down in the Tribulation and I'll show you someone who has no clue. The logic you use in this comment is ludicrous as I know the events of the trib as well if not better than most post-tribbers...

The logic is sound. Everyone isn’t a prophecy scholar like yourself and your average “Joe” will be not be looking for anything but the rapture to happen next.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[TFCDR]

First this:

The promise to “keep you from” can also be translated “keep you through” in Revelation 3:10.

If that's truly the case the Greek "dia" would have been used instead of the Greek "ek". It is kept "from" as in "out of".

Also, you still mistunderstand the difference between tribulation and the Tribulation. Two separate things. Yes the church suffers tribulation and we will until the Rapture....HOWEVER....the Tribulation starts when Christ opens the first seal...wait...who opened the first seal? Christ did. Every judgment, all 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls...ALL are from God not satan, not man, not the antichrist. They are all set to punish the wicked, those who are not of God. These will fulfill the six fold purpose of Daniel's prophecy. Man (and satan) causes tribulation...GOD causes the Tribulation (i.e. Daniel's 70th week)

More later

In Christ
Joe

 

[TFCDR]

Reference the Restrainer:

So you are suggesting 1. We need to reinterpret the phrase “day of Christ and NOT take it literally and 2. That the Thessalonians were worried that they had missed “a period of time in which God pours forth His wrath and later his blessings?” That doesn’t even make one ounce of sense.

No, I am saying that the accepted error in translation is that it should read the Day of the Lord and not the Day of Christ. As for # 2, you are not reading what it says and further the reason for the 2nd letter to Thessalonica...they were fearful because they thought they missed the rapture and the Day of the Lord had started. You need to check the history of that letter, not speculation from a post trib site.

In Christ
Joe

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by TFCDR:
[QB] First this:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The promise to “keep you from” can also be translated “keep you through” in Revelation 3:10.

If that's truly the case the Greek "dia" would have been used instead of the Greek "ek". It is kept "from" as in "out of".
</font>[/QUOTE]And yet "ek" is translated as "in" just a few short verses later, in 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire...". "ek" is a preposition that does not have a specific meaning, but is often used for general-purpose. It can meant "out". It can mean "in". It can mean "by". It can mean "of", "on", "from", "with", etc.

Also, you still mistunderstand the difference between tribulation and the Tribulation.

No, we (most of us, anyway) understand the difference. It appears that you misunderstand the difference between tribulation and wrath.

Brian

 

[TFCDR]

Reference the crowns and the elders in Rev 5:8-14

I am not sure by the wording of your response that you are not trying to hold on to this passage representing the church in Heaven. Look at what you say, “Note the crowns...that is what is being talked about when people say these verses show the raptured church.” Maybe you have heard of that before. Whether you’ve heard of it or not it is a consistently taught error of proponents of the pretrib rapture. Look at the quote below.

In your defense you make the comment above and then provide a comment on Rev 4? That makes no sense. Who is awarded crowns upon completion of the Bema judgement? Believers. That's made clear throughout the New Testament. If the elders are wearing crowns, and you take it in context , they do indeed represent the church in the aspect of they are the chosen 24 who sit on those thrones around Christ, they've been judged and rewarded accordingly. Since this is the case, and since this is at the beginning of the Tribulation (70th week of Daniel)...they must have been judged prior.. HENCE THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.

In Christ
Joe

 

[TFCDR]

Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TFCDR:
[QB] First this:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The promise to “keep you from” can also be translated “keep you through” in Revelation 3:10.

If that's truly the case the Greek "dia" would have been used instead of the Greek "ek". It is kept "from" as in "out of".
</font>[/QUOTE]And yet "ek" is translated as "in" just a few short verses later, in 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire...". "ek" is a preposition that does not have a specific meaning, but is often used for general-purpose. It can meant "out". It can mean "in". It can mean "by". It can mean "of", "on", "from", "with", etc.

Also, you still mistunderstand the difference between tribulation and the Tribulation.

No, we (most of us, anyway) understand the difference. It appears that you misunderstand the difference between tribulation and wrath.

Brian </font>[/QUOTE]Actually I do understand the difference Brian...the tribulation that the church faces (persecution, martyrdom etc) is of MAN...the wrath you are referring to, found throughout the TRIBULATION (Daniels 70th Week) is of GOD. BIG difference.

In Christ
Joe

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Actually I do understand the difference Brian...the tribulation that the church faces (persecution, martyrdom etc) is of MAN...the wrath you are referring to, found throughout the TRIBULATION (Daniels 70th Week) is of GOD. BIG difference.

Correct.

Even pretrib believes there are people that accept Christ during the trib, the so-called "trib saints". If *they* can be present on the earth during "Tribulation" and "wrath", the presence of "Tribulation" and "wrath" does not preclude the presence of the church as well.

Not one verse in scripture says the church will be raptured 7 years prior to the end of the "Tribulation".

 

[Tim too]

BrianT,

on all your responses. Thanks for the help on the Greek. I've had at least three semesters of it, but it is one of those things you lose if you don't use.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Ed Edwards]

Tim too: " ... Tribulation is consistently used to describe
the sufferings that BELIEVERS endure at the hands of the UNGODLY."

Unfortunately you seem to have described only two out of
five "tribulations" i found in the Holy Bible:

---------------------------------

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adan & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:


--------------------------------------------

Only #2 and #3 here refer to the
"the hands of the UNGODLY"

In 2 Thess 1:6 "tribulation" appears to be the same
as "wrath".

In Romans 2:8-9, curses the self seeking
with "indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish".
Seems here that "tribulation" and "wrath" again
are similar.

In Romans 5:3, Paul seems to be speaking
of a "tribualtion" more like that in #1 of my
writing. Paul is speaking of the tribulation
which all humankind is aware of: the daily
strugle in this vail of tears.

According to the Tim_too definition of
"tribulation" 2 Corinthians 1:4 makes no sense.
We have to be persecuted to give comfort to
"those who are in any trouble"?
I see that if we suffer any trouble (like those
in my #1 above) then we can give comfort to
"those who are in any trouble.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by BrianT:
Correct.

Even pretrib believes there are people that accept Christ during the trib, the so-called "trib saints". If *they* can be present on the earth during "Tribulation" and "wrath", the presence of "Tribulation" and "wrath" does not preclude the presence of the church as well.

Not one verse in scripture says the church will be raptured 7 years prior to the end of the "Tribulation".

Bingo.

Fascinating, isn't it, that pre-trib pre-supposes that there's something special about the church that it should be spared tribulation. I guess that if pre-trib were correct, the people saved during the tribulation would be second-class saints, since they don't get to go AWOL the way the church does.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: "Fascinating, isn't it, that pre-trib pre-supposes
that there's something special about the church
that it should be spared tribulation."

I'd like to see your evidence that any pre-tribber
ever suggested such a thing. Priority would go to
a source on the Baptist Board. I've been a pretribber
for 51 years and have NEVER heard a pretribber
suggest this pre-supposition.

In fact, there is nothing special about the
raptured generation, nothing. God will have the
rapture before the tribulation on His schedule,
not ours.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by TFCDR:
Actually I do understand the difference Brian...the tribulation that the church faces (persecution, martyrdom etc) is of MAN...the wrath you are referring to, found throughout the TRIBULATION (Daniels 70th Week) is of GOD. BIG difference.

First of all, to correct you for the umpteenth time, there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation period. There is a 70th week, but that is not equivalent to a tribulation period, and there is no place in the Bible that says it is.

There is something called the great tribulation, however, and here is how Jesus describes it:

Matthew 24 "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

So what you're saying is that God is responsible for many coming in His name and claiming to be the Christ. You're saying God delivers up the elect to tribulation to kill the saints and for the saints to be hated by all nations for the sake of Jesus. God makes people betray one another and hate one another. God sends false prophets to deceive many. And God makes lawlessness abound so that the love of many will grow cold.

That's what you're saying.

What I'm saying is all that great tribulation is of the devil and of man, and comes as a result of the restrainer (IMO Michael) being removed. But when it starts raining mountains, and angels start delivering plagues upon the earth, I call that God's wrath. And none of that occurs until AFTER the great tribulation.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: "First of all, to correct you for the
umpteenth time, there is no such thing as a
7 year tribulation period. There is a 70th week,
but that is not equivalent to a tribulation period,
and there is no place in the Bible that says it is."

And your one and only one verse that PROVES
your statement is?

 

[Trotter]

Tim too,

Most humble apologies. Wasn't meant as an affront, and am sorry that it wasn't worded better.

The whole arguement appears to be circular. Round and round, with no end (or quarter) in sight. And no one is coming any closer to their own goals, hence "never coming to the knowledge of the truth."

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I'd like to see your evidence that any pre-tribber ever suggested such a thing. Priority would go to a source on the Baptist Board. I've been a pretribber for 51 years and have NEVER heard a pretribber suggest this pre-supposition.

It is one of the most popular arguments for pre-trib because it mistakes "not appointed to wrath" to mean we are not appointed to be around for the great tribulation because God will mercifully spare us the agony. Dwight Pentacost suggests such a thing in Things TO Come, and I'll be glad to quote it when I find my copy (it's packed somewhere - I just moved). That's one of the most authoritative books on end times there is, so you can't say it's not a qualified pre-tribber saying so.

Pre-tribbers compound the error by reasoning that we are exhorted to look forward to the return of Jesus, which would not be a comforting thought if we had to go through the great tribulation, therefore we must not be destined to go through the great tribulation. I would like someone to explain why God will spare us discomfort to Paul, who was stoned and left for dead, or to Peter, who was crucified upside down. Surely we are so much better than they that we deserve to be spared great tribulation.

That's why the pre-trib position is downright silly. Yes, we are not appointed to God's wrath -- that's what the Bible says, and it makes perfect sense. But there's nothing in the Bible that says we are to be spared tribulation of any kind, great or otherwise. Indeed, perserverence during great tribulation is an opportunity to glorify God.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Npetreley: "First of all, to correct you for the
umpteenth time, there is no such thing as a
7 year tribulation period. There is a 70th week,
but that is not equivalent to a tribulation period,
and there is no place in the Bible that says it is."

And your one and only one verse that PROVES
your statement is?

You're asking me to prove a negative. The burden of proof is upon you to show me any verse that says there is a 7 year tribulation period, or that Daniel's 70th week is a 7-year period of great tribulation.