Repenting of sin-Once saved always saved

A line in another thread, in reference to a sexual sin, stated, "and they are still going to hell unless they repent and believe" gave me a bit of a pause.

Christians still stumble, they still make mistakes, they still sin. Hopefully they don't do it often, and they stop, and they repent, but .. what are your opinions about those who accept Christ as Lord and savior (or are elected by Christ for you calvinists), who slips and backslides and dies before repenting?

My own believe is once saved always saved, based on the verse that say you cannot be snatched from God's hand.

I am interested in how others interpret scripture in this regard though.

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Christians still stumble, they still make mistakes, they still sin. Hopefully they don't do it often, and they stop, and they repent, but .. what are your opinions about those who accept Christ as Lord and savior (or are elected by Christ for you calvinists), who slips and backslides and dies before repenting?

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You have pretty much described every Christian on the face of the earth. Every Christian backslides from time to time. If you or I were to doe right now, we no doubt probably have some sin or two (or more) that we committed in the past that we have not repented of. Every Christian sins every day: they speed, they get to work late and pretent they got there on time, they take a pen from work, etc etc etc.

Repentance is not something you do once when you're first saved and "bam, you're in", as some falsely think. Repenting is an attitude. It's something that we're supposed to do all the time, for the rest of our lives. It's a condition of the heart. God alone knows the condition of a person's heart. He doesn't care about the sins themselves, because Jesus already paid for them.

And, yes, repentant people will still sin. It's part of human nature. But it's how we handle that sin that makes the difference. Pointing the righteous finger at others only leads to three fingers pointing back at ourselves.

I believe you are still saved, but any reward you would have had has been taken away.

Hebrews Chapter 6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I believe these verses can be applied to any believer today who becomes apostate and takes a stand against Jesus. Having turned his back on Jesus, there would be no place else where he could turn to find repentance and restoration to God's blessing and favor.

But unless a believer chooses to take a stand against Jesus, then certainly:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)

I agree with everyone, so far.
That's a neat verse about no one will be snatched from God's hand, and there are so many others too about being secure in Christ and eternal life.
John 10
25Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is what I do in the name of my Father. 26But you don’t believe me because you are not part of my flock. 27My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from me, 29for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. So no one can take them from me. 30The Father and I are one.”

Brian30755 I would have to agree with Texasky. Once saved always saved. The verse you quoted ( unless I am missunderstanding you )
Hebrews Chapter 6 isn't saying what you think it is saying. Actually it is saying once saved always saved. Heres why

What it is saying in a sarcastic way is that, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Chrisitan to CRUCIFY Christ all over again if they do sin or forsake Christ. Christ died once and for all for sins, and NOTHING that you do can change the fact once you have placed your faith in him and he has entered your heart ( only God knows who is really saved ) can you become lost again. Read it as if it was written sarcastically ( which I'm sure it was ) then you will see a totally different meaning.

Otherwise you would have to throw out hundreds of other verses that assure us of our salvation like JOHN 10:28 and 29

Something amazingly fundamental changes a person once they have accepted Jesus as their savior. Though they can backslide and sin in more reckless ways than before, perhaps there is more self awareness of what they are doing, more cringing, and more conscience due to the fact that now, being saved, they really do see the way of right. Maybe they dont always walk in that way, but they do know where it is.

I cant speak for anyone but me, and that is how it feels for me. Good topic!

I don't think that God would provide salvation for us, we accept it, and then if we backslide, which many in the Bible did, would take away our salvation. I don't find that in the Bible. It is all a part of growing in grace, as falling is to a toddlers learning to walk.

I have to agree with TS on this...once saved always saved is taught in the scriptures. I would believe that when God says "NO MAN can pluck them out of my father's hand" that would include ourselves.

JMHO.

***NOTE: TexasSky and I agree on something???? Did anyone just feel the earth quake????

I believe it's possible for a saved person to turn his back on God and become so distant that he no longer "feels" saved. Salvation isn't a feeling, I realize. Although, the Lord convicts those who are saved...but still allows us to make our own choices.
It's possible to choose to do wrong for whatever reason - and be convicted about it - but the more we sin, the harder our heart becomes and the less we "feel" saved.

I know a pastor who preaches that if you're truly saved, you're not going to sin. If you sin, you're not truly saved. He's named names of those that he's sure won't make it into heaven "he smokes...not saved"..."she is disobedient toward her husband...she's not saved" (and his "disobedience" is my definition of disagreement, which is not a sin). By his standard, the only people going to heaven are those who die immediately upon accepting Christ (assuming they don't cuss on the way out).

People live in the human body, saved or unsaved. All the sins I can think of involves the human body in some way (listening to rock music-the ears...swearing-the mouth...killing-the hands...smoking-the mouth, the lungs....pornography-the eyes) So, let's say a drug addict has hit bottom and is looking for help. He finally meets someone who can show him how he can change his life around and accept the Lord as his Savior. If he does repent and accept Christ, he's still going to want the joint, sniff or puff because his physical body is going to crave it. But the difference this time is he wants to get clean. Unfortunately, he can't just quit drinking if he's been an alcoholic because he could die from it. Quitting a lot of drugs cold turkey will make him sick.

Once clean, it's possible for him to slip up and take a puff or sniff of drugs...but he's still saved.

My parents are saved but they have always had a difficult time getting off the cigarette. Does smoking make them lose their salvation? If it does, I know a LOT of Christians...including pastors...who are not going to go to Heaven when they die. Gluttony is a sin. [shrug] If they die of an illness that is complicated by overeating, then they've pretty much committed suicide, right? Some people believe suicide is the unpardonable sin because they can't ask forgiveness. So, then they aren't going to Heaven, right?

Do you see how easily things can get so twisted around that we can "predict" who makes it to Heaven and who doesn't?

This preacher I know is going to be very surprised when he gets to Heaven (assuming he's saved) and sees who actually makes it to Heaven. Some of the people he's named have told me, "I'm saved, Accepted Christ at **/**/**, I will always be saved, and I don't doubt my salvation one bit". Does this sound like an unsaved person to you?

Naw, Heaven would be very empty if it was possible to lose our salvation. In fact, salvation is the only thing I haven't lost. I lose my keys, my wallet, my comb, pens, important papers (and yet I always seem to come across these things when I'm looking for something else).

Originally posted by webdog:
I believe you are still saved, but any reward you would have had has been taken away.

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This is one of the most accurate things I have seen on this board lately.

Yet everyone of you glossed over it. Why?

Eternal security is a truth clearly taught in Scripture yet there ARE many passages which will give the OSAS folks a hard time. In fact MOST cannot handle them.

For example; in Revelation Jesus is addressing CHURCHES and says "He that endures to the end shall be saved". What do you do with that? The converse then must be true. He that does NOT endure will NOT be saved.

Obviously there is a truth that MANY in Christendom are missing.

In HIS service;
Jim

Brian30755 I would have to agree with Texasky. Once saved always saved. The verse you quoted ( unless I am missunderstanding you )
Hebrews Chapter 6 isn't saying what you think it is saying. Actually it is saying once saved always saved. Heres why

What it is saying in a sarcastic way is that, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Chrisitan to CRUCIFY Christ all over again if they do sin or forsake Christ. Christ died once and for all for sins, and NOTHING that you do can change the fact once you have placed your faith in him and he has entered your heart ( only God knows who is really saved ) can you become lost again. Read it as if it was written sarcastically ( which I'm sure it was ) then you will see a totally different meaning.

Otherwise you would have to throw out hundreds of other verses that assure us of our salvation like JOHN 10:28 and 29

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Let me go back and re-study this section in Hebrews. I'm not saying I'm 100% sure I'm right on this, but I just finished a good study of the book of Hebrews and I don't remember anything that would indicate that Hebrews 6:4-6 should be taken as if it was written sarcastically.

It's kind of hard for me to explain how I believe about "once saved, always saved".

I do believe that, once saved, no one can take your salvation away from you. I think you'd agree with me there.

What we would probably disagree on is this: I believe that YOU can "throw away" your salvation if you take a stand against Jesus.

Example: I was saved when I was 12 years old. Now, you can say "Well, you must not have really been saved", but I believed that I was. I believed in Jesus, I believed in what He did for me, I trusted in Him for my salvation, I prayed to Him, I poured my heart out to Him, asked Him to forgive me and to save me. Now, fast-forward to age 25. If I would have died at age 25, I have no doubt that I would have gone to hell. Why? Because I had totally turned my back on God. He didn't even exist as far as I was concerned (Not that I stopped believing that there was a God. I just lived like there wasn't.) I made fun of Christians, I didn't like Christians (they were ALL hypocrites as far as I was concerned)...in short, I had taken a stand against Jesus. I was no longer saved.

It wasn't until I was 35 that I came back to Jesus. Now, I KNOW I'm saved, I KNOW I'm going to Heaven, I KNOW that nobody or nothing could take my salvation away from me. However, I still believe that IF I CHOOSE TO, I could turn my back on Him again. (In the same way that if you CHOOSE to, you could commit any sin that's out there.....adultery, murder, homosexuality, etc.)

I've read where some of the most notorious serial-killers in this country claimed to have become born-again Christians at some point in their life (BEFORE they went on their killing sprees). Does this mean they were never saved? If not, how do you know? If they WERE truly saved at one time, and there's no way they could ever lose their salvation, then they'll still go to heaven even though they've raped and murdered dozens of women, right?

Like I said before, I'm not 100% sure I'm right about this, so I appreciate your comments and thoughts. Maybe you can help me see something I'm not seeing. It's just that I have a hard time understanding how you could be saved, then totally turn your back on Jesus and think you are still saved.

Yes Brian30755 I can relate, I too at a young age asked Jesus into my heart and then continued to do what I wanted. But it wasn't until I was 22 that I TOTALLY gave him my life. I don't think God cares much about what we say as much as he cares about our heart and our commitment.

So just because someone prays a pray to ask Jesus in that doesn't mean he did. Only God really knows who is truly saved. By the condition of his heart commitment.

Going back to Hebrews 6, you would have to be able to find other verses even just one to back up your interpetation. And you can't, so it must be taken the way I explained it. The auther is clearly saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to crucify Christ over again and again. Meaning sin was paid for once and for all.

There was nothing I did to get saved ( even the fact that I responded to God came from God not me ) so there is nothing I can do to keep my salvation.

As a Christian what we do effects or RELATIONSHIP not our POSITION. we are already positioned in the heavenly realms with christ at the moment of Salvation. ( Sorry having trouble finding the verse for that Rom I believe ) But if we continue in sin then we effect our relationship with God.

Like having children. I love my kids and there is nothing they can do to change the fact that they are MY kids. They can reject me all they want, but they still belong to me and are part of my family. Now if I as a parent feel that way, then God who IS love and who's love is UNCONDITIONAL wouldn't his love for us be greater ?

My salvation isn't based on anything I have done but on his LOVE alone.

Oh Brian about the serial killers, I believe the story is they became Born Again Christians AFTER they went to jail and the killings NOT before. Like Domner, Bundy, and others. I am big on watching Biographys and never heard that.

Brian, how would you view Lot in sodom? Do you believe he was living his life for God, or did he turn his back on Him? Was he still considered "righteous"? God was going to destroy the wicked in the city, don't you believe he was living wickedly (he did offer his daughters to the homosexuals in the presence of angels)? Why didn't God just destroy the city with him in it?

I'll tell you why...because he never lost his salvation. Jesus only used two incidents in the OT when discussing the tribulation. Sodom and the flood. In both incidents, the righteous were spared even if they were not in fellowship with God. There is a reason God calls eternal life, "eternal life". It can't end.

16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

21Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.

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1 John 5:16-21

I think this passage might be helpful to consider in this discussion.

Joseph Botwinick

OK Joseph_Botwinick I'll give it a try.

First the word " Death " Obviously refering to a PHYSICAL death not a SPIRITUAL one. You will find in other scriptures including 1Cor. 11:30
that if a Christian is living in sin against the body and sometimes by being a bad witness for God he will be called home in an untimely manner. So I believe these verses are talking about a physical Death not seperation from God. For we all sin, every day in fact against a Holy God.

Now for " Continue To Sin " a Christian has something nonbelievers do not have and that is the Holy Spirit which convicts us of sin so if we habitually are living in sin we WILL DESIRE not to. A nonbliever doesn't care, but we do. We have the power not to sin, a nonbeliever doesn't. Big difference.

I'm not sure if I answered the question right the way you presented it but that is what I got from the Holy Spirit and what I have read.

Just so you know, I'm not trying to argue here.....just trying to learn. Let me ask you this:

Concerning a believer who turns his back on God, who takes a stand against Jesus; do you believe:

(a) If someone is TRULY saved, this could never happen; or

(b) Even if someone does this, even if they turn their back on God, engage in all sorts of wickedness and sin (murder, rape, etc.).....they are still saved and will still go to heaven.

2 Timothy 1:12 is an anchor for my soul.

Rufus

Originally posted by Brian30755:
Just so you know, I'm not trying to argue here.....just trying to learn. Let me ask you this:

Concerning a believer who turns his back on God, who takes a stand against Jesus; do you believe:

(a) If someone is TRULY saved, this could never happen; or

(b) Even if someone does this, even if they turn their back on God, engage in all sorts of wickedness and sin (murder, rape, etc.).....they are still saved and will still go to heaven.

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(a) I believe a truly saved person can turn their back on God and become so out of fellowship that their actions and life would seem as though they are unbelievers. I speak from experience (and not proudly). Even in sin, I could FEEL the Holy Spirit vexed within me. Things weren't all rosy, either. God chastens His children, and believe me, He does!

(b) All believers still have a sin nature, so there is no sin a believer cannot comit, whether murder rape, etc. Look at king David. He basically did both at the same time. He was called the apple of God's eye, and I know I will see David in Heaven.
David was punished for his sin. There are consequences for all sin leading to physical death.

Let me telll you a personal story. My sister was saved, active in the church, and loved the Lord. She struggled with weight issues, as wasn't very popular in school. Into her twenties she had never been on a date, and so desperately wanted a boyfriend. Needless to say, she got involved with someone who was interested in her.

Her boyfriend was wrapped up in vampirism, voodoo, dungeons 'n dragons and all kind of demonic things. My sister fell head over heels for him, because of his affection toward her. She slowly got wrapped up in all of this. My family knew he was bad news, but not to the extent it was. She became distanced from us, either because she was embarassed about her lifestyle, or she was fighting the Holy Spirit. In a few short years she began living like this, she had been in six car accidents, and had numerous injuries. God was trying to get her attention, and was severely chatening her

Two years ago my sister and her boyfriend were found dead from carbon monoxide poisoning.

I believe God said "enough is enough" and took her out of this world in a great suffering. Even though God is patient, I believe my sister was so engrossed in her lifestyle, that she left God no choice but to allow her to die a horrible death. I have no doubt I will see her again, because I believe Jesus' promise that He never leaves, nor forsakes us, but I believe she has lost any reward in Heaven she would have earned on earth.

Originally posted by TexasSky:
what are your opinions about those who accept Christ as Lord and savior...who slips and backslides and dies before repenting?

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Look at it this way. How many of us can change the past? I'm thinking...none. In the past Jesus Christ saved me. Saved means I am not going to hell. He saved me from hell and saved me to heaven. In the past I became a child of God. I cannot change that. Way back in 19(mumble mumble) I became the son of Mr. and Mrs. Artimaeus Sr.. There is nothing that can be done about that. No matter how I behave THAT will not change.

If I was not going to go to hell in 1971 (when I got saved) then I am not going to hell in the future. If I end up in hell because I have...(whatever) then it was not a true statement that in 1971 I was saved.

It is an oxymoron to say, "I used to be saved.".

I am either saved now or I am on my way to being saved. I cannot be saved now and end up in hell because that would mean I wasn't saved.