Repenting of sin-Once saved always saved

[RightFromWrong]

AMEN Webdog, you are right.

Brian, Again your salvation doesn't depend on YOU it depends on what CHRIST DID FOR YOU.

The reason people go to Hell, is because we are born in a CONDITION that automatically seperates us from God. A sin nature.

We do not go to Hell because we sin because everyone sins, even Christians. But because we are not in a right relationship with God. So when we ask God to forgive us of our sins and ask him to take control of our life and be our Lord and Savior then we are made back into fellowship with God.

Now here is the key:

When Jesus comes into our hearts we are a new creature through his new nature.
We are now positioned in the Heavenly realms with God.
We are adopted by God into his family, now a part of the body.

Now if I decide to walk away from God and his teachings ( which I doubt if one really does he was saved in the first place ) Then what will happen is that person will still go to heaven if they truely were saved, but he will have loss of rewards. And may not enjoy heaven to the same extent as others will. I also believe there are different levels to heaven, just as there are different levels of hell.

If you need scripture verses for all that I would be happy to look them up later, but I have to get going.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

The parable of the Prodigal Son is about someone who has lost his salvation and, in this case, regains it. This is the most pertinent part.

Luke 15:24 - "'for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry." ~ Note: The word for dead here means spiritually dead, destitute of a life that recognizes and is devoted to God because given up to trespasses and sins. The word for alive again here means to be restored to a correct life, of one who returns to a better moral state. The words restored and returns ("alive again") are actions of things that once had it, then did not have it, then had it again. The words dead and alive again clearly mean that the son had lost his salvation but later got it back. The words lost and found are about someone who is or is not going to heaven. Clearly, this parable explains that someone can be a child of God, then leave God and start the practice of sin, and become dead and lose their fellowship with God, because God just said that "he was lost." Unless, of course, one comes to their senses, repents, and turns back to God like I did after I backslid and in the way it is portrayed in this parable. Then they will be "alive again." But just because this parable has a happy ending, it doesn't mean that it always turns out this way.

There is a lot of other scripture in the Bible which disproves the doctrine of OSAS. I can post that later.

 

[webdog]

This parable is not about losing one's salvation. It is about someone who is lost, becoming saved. You said it yourself, lost refers to "spiritually dead". How can a true believer ever be spiritually dead? They can't. Go back to the beginning of the parable. By the son requesting his inheritance should be somthing unheard of, and it shows his hate for his father, as in saying "I wish you were dead so I can have my inheritance". A true believe can never "hate" God. The inheritance was given the same as today; when someone dies they receive it. Would you ask your father to uphold his will now while he's living?

As far as other scripture that "disproves" OSAS, unless you can find a different meaning for the words "eternal" and "everlasting", you will never disprove anything. Once you prove something everlasting cannot last, and something eternal can end, you will have proved your point. I won't hold my breath.

 

[Brian30755]

Now if I decide to walk away from God and his teachings ( which I doubt if one really does he was saved in the first place ) Then what will happen is that person will still go to heaven if they truely were saved, but he will have loss of rewards. And may not enjoy heaven to the same extent as others will. I also believe there are different levels to heaven, just as there are different levels of hell.

If you need scripture verses for all that I would be happy to look them up later, but I have to get going.

Yes, when you have time, I would like to know what scripture you are using to support the fact that someone who walks away from God will still go to heaven but will lose their rewards. Also, any scripture to support that there are different levels of heaven would be appreciated, too.

I appreciate everyone's input on this. I'm seeing some things in a way I've never been shown them before. Thanks.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by webdog:
This parable is not about losing one's salvation. It is about someone who is lost, becoming saved. You said it yourself, lost refers to "spiritually dead". How can a true believer ever be spiritually dead? They can't. Go back to the beginning of the parable. By the son requesting his inheritance should be somthing unheard of, and it shows his hate for his father, as in saying "I wish you were dead so I can have my inheritance". A true believe can never "hate" God. The inheritance was given the same as today; when someone dies they receive it. Would you ask your father to uphold his will now while he's living?

As far as other scripture that "disproves" OSAS, unless you can find a different meaning for the words "eternal" and "everlasting", you will never disprove anything. Once you prove something everlasting cannot last, and something eternal can end, you will have proved your point. I won't hold my breath.

Did the younger son have a good relationship with his father (God) before he rebelled? Then he turned his back on God and then finally came home again. I agree with your statement that a true believer can not be spiritually dead. I'm talking about who turn away from God. Do you call someone who turns his back on God and curses His name a true believer?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

What do you suppose this parable is all about, good investment practices?

Mat 25:14 For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made [them] other five talents.
Mat 25:17 And likewise he that [had received] two, he also gained other two.
Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

These servents are judged not only on their faithfullness to their master (God) but also on what they accomplish with their gifts.

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This is even more evident in Mathew's account of the Judgement.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

These are all people that are being judged. Some of them of entering into eternal life and of course only Christians will do so. Therefore, Christians are being judged by the same standards as non-Christians. Of course, good deeds done by non-believers are as "filthy rags" and count for nothing.

 

[ccrobinson]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
This parable is not about losing one's salvation. [snip]

Did the younger son have a good relationship with his father (God) before he rebelled? Then he turned his back on God and then finally came home again. I agree with your statement that a true believer can not be spiritually dead. I'm talking about who turn away from God. Do you call someone who turns his back on God and curses His name a true believer? </font>[/QUOTE]We are never told whether the prodigal and his father had a good relationship before the prodigal rebelled or not. It doesn't matter anyway, because the question of whether they had a good relationship is completely irrelevant.

The relationship that they did have was father and son, and that didn't change because the son left. It didn't change while the son was gone, and it certainly didn't change when the son came home. Throughout the story, the father and the son remain just that, father and son.

It sounds to me like you're trying to build a doctrine of Eternal Insecurity based on a parable, and I've always thought you should never build doctrine based on parables.

 

[Petrel]

Additionally, the parable of the Prodigal Son follows the parables of the lost coin and the lost sheep. These three were told in response to the Pharisees' condemnation of Jesus for associating with tax collectors and sinners. The point of the parables is summed up in Luke 15 verses 7 and 10 as heaven rejoicing over a sinner's repentance--not as testifying to the possibility of losing one's salvation!

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

For someone to be dead and then alive AGAIN means that they were previously alive. Therefore, the correct interpretation of this parable is that the prodigal son was saved, lost his salvation, and then regained it.

But there's no lack of more direct scriptural support against OSAS.

First of all, how do you interpret the Judgement scene described in Mather 25? This passage shows the necessity of maintaining an active relationship with Jesus which changes the way you live your life. Saying the "Sinner's Prayer at one time 50 years ago is not sufficient.
*****************************************
Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hbr 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hbr 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

The key phrase in this passage is "stedfast unto the end." We are made partakers of Christ (saved) if we are "stedfast unto the end."
****************************************
Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


**********************************
Hbr 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Hbr 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

**************************************

Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Helping one who has turned their back on God saves their soul from Hell.

***************************************

Jam 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Those that endure temptation will receive the crown of life (salvation) when they are tried (MAT 25).

***************************************

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

There is much more. I'll post again later.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

StraightAndNarrow,

I am 100% agree with you comepletly as what you saying according to the scriptures.

Myself was used to believe in security salvation doctrine for a long time. Now, I am no longer believe in it.

There are so much overwhelming teaching find in the Bible warning us about our souls.

See, Matthew chapter 25 shows a heavily weight warning of our conditional salvation of our living and practically. There are three passages with warning of our conditional salvation living in Matthew chapter 25.

Interesting, I notice many pretribs interpreting that chapter in their method with different purposes, different applies. THey saying Matt. 25:1-13 is speak of Jewish virgins in the tribulation period; verse 14-30 speak of the judgement seat of Christ in the heaven; and verse 31-46 speak of "judgment of nations" speak to the 'Gentiles' who will feed Jewish people during seven year of Tribulation period.

I strongly disagree with them, what their method of interpreting Matthew chapter 25.

I believe Matthew chapter 25 always apply to us all individuals either Jew or Gentile of our own respsonsible.

Matthew 25:1-13 is speaking of our today's currently living and our practically of our spiritual prepared to be watch and ready for Christ's coming. Christ warns us, if we do not watch and be ready, we cannot enter Christ's place when Christ shall come like as thief, will be cast away.

Matthew 25:14-30 is speaking of our respsonsiblity, works, duty, that our works shall be revealed in the judgement at Christ's coming - 1 Cor. 3:12-15. Christ warns us, if we do not use our talent(duty), and not serve the Lord, we shall be cast away into the outer darkeness - everlasting punishment in the lake of fire!

Matthew 25:31-46 is speaking of the judgment day/great white throne at Christ's coming. There shall be only two groups to be divided from anong nations of the world by gathering nations by the angels. Either Jew or Gentile who shall be on the left side of Christ as 'goat' represent wicked. Christ shall rebuke to people at the left side, these who are not serving the Lord, not care God's people. Christ will send them into everlatsing punishment because of disobedience, and not serve the Lord.

Obivously, Matthew chapter 25 talks so overwhelming warning about our conditional salvation living that we must be prepared all the times throughout our lifetime, because one day we all shall face Christ judge us.

StraightAndNarrow will give tons of passages with scriptures to you talking lot of conditional salvation living with warnings. No way that you can afford to ignore or neglect warnings from the Bible.

Of course, I am fear of these passages with warning. My living and on the road toward eternal life is NOT funny!! Very serious!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[RightFromWrong]

I'm sorry but the last two authors are missinterpeting scripture. Like I said before most of the verses that look like you can lose your salvation are dealing with a Christians
RELATIONSHIP with God not his POSITION. And I had mentioned before, be very careful to understand when scripture is talking about a PHYSICAL DEATH and a SPIRITUAL DEATH. All the verses mentioned can be can be interpeted in a more foundational way. Basic FOUNDATION is ~ I did nothing to EARN Salvation so there is nothing I can do to LOSE it.

Below is a very helpful link dealing with ASSURANCE OF SALVATION

http://www.e-grace.net/assure.html

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
This parable is not about losing one's salvation. It is about someone who is lost, becoming saved. You said it yourself, lost refers to "spiritually dead". How can a true believer ever be spiritually dead? They can't. Go back to the beginning of the parable. By the son requesting his inheritance should be somthing unheard of, and it shows his hate for his father, as in saying "I wish you were dead so I can have my inheritance". A true believe can never "hate" God. The inheritance was given the same as today; when someone dies they receive it. Would you ask your father to uphold his will now while he's living?

As far as other scripture that "disproves" OSAS, unless you can find a different meaning for the words "eternal" and "everlasting", you will never disprove anything. Once you prove something everlasting cannot last, and something eternal can end, you will have proved your point. I won't hold my breath.

Did the younger son have a good relationship with his father (God) before he rebelled? Then he turned his back on God and then finally came home again. I agree with your statement that a true believer can not be spiritually dead. I'm talking about who turn away from God. Do you call someone who turns his back on God and curses His name a true believer? </font>[/QUOTE]The apostle Peter was. He later did repent, granted, but he was still saved though he had denied Christ.

Also, what would you do with those in the OT who "left God" but yet God considered them "righteous"? Lot being a good example.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Last two authors, scriptural basis?

 

[RightFromWrong]

AVL1984 good point

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Was Judas saved? He was chosen to be a deciple and walked with Jesus throughout His ministry so he couldn't have been too disruptive. He, like Peter at one time, had an incorrect view of Jesus' reason for coming to Earth. Did Jesus choose an incorrigible sinner to be one of His deciples?

 

[RightFromWrong]

Judas was NOT saved, he was an example of one who claims to be a follower of Christ but yet NEVER KNEW HIM.

Matt. 7:20 " Wherefore by thy FRUIT ye shall KNOW them. Not everyone that sayth Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day Lord , Lord have we not preached in your name. And in thy name cast out demons, and in thy name do wonderful things ? And then i will say DEPART from me for I never KNEW you, you that work iniquity. "

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by RightFromWrong:
Judas was NOT saved, he was an example of one who claims to be a follower of Christ but yet NEVER KNEW HIM.

Matt. 7:20 " Wherefore by thy FRUIT ye shall KNOW them. Not everyone that sayth Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day Lord , Lord have we not preached in your name. And in thy name cast out demons, and in thy name do wonderful things ? And then i will say DEPART from me for I never KNEW you, you that work iniquity. "

I agree with this perspective. Then, according to this scripture, what is the salvation status of someone who accepted Christ 40 years ago and followed Him for a while but then fell away? Let's say he's a notorious sinner and has never repented and no one would guess that he's a Christian by his fruits.

 

[RightFromWrong]

Well StraightAndNarrow I am not in the business of judging peoples hearts only God is. Lets look at the parable of the seeds in Matt. 13
this may help.

This is a good illustration of what happens to people when they hear Gods word.

First some people hear the word, it sounds good, but Satan comes along and snatches it right away. NOT SAVED

Next some people hear the word accpets the word but when persacution and trials come along immediately he falls away. So the seed never takes root. NOT SAVED

The third is about poeple who hear the word but are not willing to give up everything to follow Christ. NOT SAVED

And last are the people who hear the word, the word lands on GOOD soil it takes root and grows and produces more fruit. TRUE SALVATION

There are alot of people talking the talk and walking the walk who are not saved. Its not really my job to worry about who they are. I just need to worry about my own walk and talk.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. NOT SAVED

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

This person received the word with joy. Sounds like a good description of salvation in the usual Baptist sense. How can you argue that someone who joyfully accepts Christ as his Savior isn’t saved? We’re talking about saved through Grace here. However, when times get hard he rejects his belief. LOSES SALVATION

Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. NOT SAVED

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. SAVED

Has the same experience as the person in the second example but bears fruit. He endures to the end.

 

[RightFromWrong]

Here let me try to explain it more clearly....

You agree that the first and the third one meant the person was not saved in the first place right ?

But lets look at the 2nd one which you said " Lost his salvation "

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same ( REFERING BACK TO THE FIRST EXAMPLE, THEY ARE BASICALLY THE SAME ) is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy ( EMOTIONAL ACCEPTANCE ) ) receiveth it; Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root ( NOT A TRUE CONVERSION )in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Again this person isn't saved.

The first example shows how someone can " INTELECTUALLY " believes the word presented but SATAN ( one of our enemies ) snatches the truth away.

The second shows how one " EMOTIONALLY " accepts the word but, but when trials and tribulation don't match up to his emotions ( FEELINGS another enemy ) he quickly abandons the truth.

The third shows how one " GREEDLY " What God can do for them type acceptance. But when the cares of the world (Cares of the WORLD another enemy ) don't meet up to their expectaions then they too abandon the truth.

I always said it is HOW someone comes to Christ that matters. If one hears a message on Hell they may accept Christ as a way to advoid Hell. Another hears a message about Jesus being a savior who will take away all their problems, so they accept him based on that.

But it is the one who truly accepts him as LORD and makes him LORD of their life that has a TRUE conversion. That is why Jesus said " many will come to him in that day and say LORD, LORD, but he will say depart from me for I NEVER KNEW you "

Again it isn't my job to worry about who is saved and who isn't. It is my job to witness to all as if they were not and to disciple those who say they are.