Alcohol

Shannon did not God make the process of fermentation in the first place. Did not God put grapes on earth knowing that they could and would be fermented. Can we blame God for our sinfullness when we misuse one of his gifts.

For that matter did not God create all the plants that grow including marijuana (sp). This plant can be used for hemp rope and was for ages. Because some misguided pot head smokes it, is God responsable for that sin because he provided the plant.

Note; I do not endorse the use of marijuana. I find it different then wine in that you can not partake in moderation and not be altered (high).


In the end only we are responsable for our sins. We can not lay guilt on anbody else for our misuse of the things God placed on this earth. If I go to a party and get drunk, it is my sin alone I can not blame the host of the party for providing the tool I used to sin.

 

I beleve that geting drunk is relying on a false god of alcohol to remove you from your problems. The bible says that we are to turn to nobody but God Jesus to remove our problems. There are many cultures that use alcohol like we drink Pepsi, there is not stigma attached. The Jewish culture is one of them.

I agree there are many that abuse alcohol. I see the same people walking out of the gas station at 5:00 everyday with a 24 pack. That is alot of beer to drink everyday. It is sad they NEED that to get along. That is there sin of turning to beer instead of God.

On the other hand there are people who enjoy a beer for the taste once in a while and who are not relying on the beer to do anything. But taste good.

 

Le bel

I am not trying to convince you to drink. I respect your decision to not. I am only trying to convince you that people who drink on occation and do not abuse are not evil. And that drinking can be compatable with Christianity.

Please do not look down your nose at Christians who have come to a different conclution then you about the issue of alcohol.

 

This is why you are being misunderstood.

You have to admit it sounds very judgemental. Since that post you have been very reasonable with your questions. And I agree if I was faced with a situation where everybody was abusing alchoal then I would A). not participate, abstinance. B). enjoy a glass at home away from the group that are abusing or C) Drink to my limit with the group then excuse myself for the night answering questions about why I am not getting drunk with a response that leaves oppertunities open to witness in the future. " I enjoy having a beer with you guys but I dont beleve geting drunk is the right thing to do. See you all tomorow."

 

If wine in the bible were just grape juice, then why would the bible need to warn against drunkeness due to wine?

The grape juice theory is used by some tee-totallers to eisegete the many passages in the bible that do not talk about the abuse of alcohol but actually celebrate it as God's blessing and as something God's people and Jesus himself drank without condemnation. The reality is that halting the fermentation process was not practical until the invention of refrigeration and pasteurization. This is what the Methodist, Mr. Welch did to bring us Baptists the cup that we enjoy today.

I respect the position of many to abstain completely from alcohol in order to avoid any chance of sinning in drunkeness and avoid being a stumbling block for others.

I guess I am fortunate in that even in my circles of non-Christian friends, drinking a lot or getting drunk is not considered "cool" or "fun". I have one friend who does feel this way and he knows my position on this and will often drink less when we hang out.

I consider alcohol to be a blessing from God to be enjoyed in its quality and vibrancy of taste. But like all good gifts from God (sex, dance, wealth), it is easily abused and we should be wary.

 

I enjoy sipping on 2-3 shots of scotch of an evening between the hours of 5 and 8. Any more than that it will effect my sleep.

 

I think everyone is in agreement. Don't consume alcohol if it is a stumblung block.

Some, however, will falsely assume that every instance of alcohol consumption is a stumbling block. That's just not so.

 

It tastes good and makes my food taste better, depending on the drink and the food. For example: a glass of chardonnay with filet mignon, or white wine with chicken. I sometimes, though rarely, enjoy a strawberry margarita, because it's delicios. I never allow myself to consume enough alcohol that I get intoxicated.

What's the point of soda? Coffee? Tea? Lemonade?

Not in my opinion. Virgin drinks don't taste the same. I hate decaf coffee as well. I can taste the difference. But I do enjoy diet coke with splenda.

The issue of understanding is completely separate from the biblical issue. Scripture permits it. It can be consumed without being a sin.

I've never completely understood why people like Nascar. I wouldn't call it a sin. Well, if it preempts a baseball game, maybe.

 

It's not Jesus' fault if someone takes something he did and makes a sin out of it.

That's as silly as saying "If Jesus made loaves anf fishes and some were gluttonous, wouldn't Jesus be responsible for their gluttony by providing the food?". It's aridiculous notion.

Scripture would disagree with you, because it was not only wine, but the best wine the guests ever had. Unfermented wine would not have been considered such, and would in fact, have been the two buck churck of the day.

Also, Jesus was a practicing Jew. It was the norm for Jews to consume wine on the Sabbath and Passover. So part of the custom was this, that if Jesus had refrained, it would have been so unusual that Gospel writers would have noted it."

 

Oh heavens no. Juice from the grape begins to ferment the moment it is extracted. It is in fact easy to make wine. Wine will quite happily make itself with a bit of help. All you do is allow crushed grapes and natural yeasts to convert the sugar into alcohol and hey presto! You've got wine. Now, making good wine, that's an art form. It's hence notable that the wedding feast wine was the best and sweetest wine the guest tasted.

 

I am really surprised at the responses. One person mentioned above taking the Bible so literally.

Yes, Jesus did turn water to wine. the grape juice Shannon talked about. He aso spoke of putting new wine in new bottles or wineskins in order to preserve both the skin and the wine.

"My first impression is that such a suggestion reflects the disposition of a carnal mind that is seeking justification for worldliness! I must observe, however, that such a view of this passage is not uncommon, even among Bible commentators. For example, C.H. Waller wrote: “From this it is clear that the use of strong drink is not sinful in itself” (Ellicott’s Commentary, pp. 11,45). There are, though, several important factors that should be taken into consideration.

First, one should note the context. It has to do with the Hebrews’ obligation to bring their “tithes” to the temple at the appointed times (vv. 22,23). If a Jew lived a great distance from the sanctuary, thus making the transportation of his produce impractical, he might sell his goods at home and bring the money derived to Jerusalem (vv. 24,25). In connection with this event, he could purchase the items listed in verse 26 to “eat there before Jehovah.” This was a religious celebration.

Do those who argue this as a precedent for us contend that we may eat meat and drink liquors as a part of our worship today? Moreover, at the end of every three years, the Hebrews were to make these festivities available for the “sojourner, and the fatherless, and the widow” (vv. 28,29). Shall we care for the fatherless and widows today by providing them with inebriants (cf. Jas. 1:27)?

Second, some consideration might, with profit, be given to the original words employed in this passage. The Hebrew terms rendered wine (yayin) and strong drink (shechar) are apparently more generic than some have supposed.

Yayin is found 141 times in the Old Testament. It can mean:

a grape vine (Num. 6:4);
products of the vineyard that can be gathered, drunk, or eaten (Deut. 28:39; cf. Jer.40:10,12);
the liquid that comes from the winepress (Isa. 16:10; Jer. 48:33); or,
fermented grape juice (Prov. 23:31).
Yayin is thus a general term referring to a variety of products from the grape vine (cf. “all sorts of wine” - Neh. 5:18), and the context in which the term is employed will determine its meaning in a given circumstance.

Similarly, shechar (23 times as a noun in the Old Testament) was used by ancient writers to denote:

sweet syrups (the term is related to our words “sugar” and “saccharine”) such as the honey of dates or palm syrup. It was employed for sweet drinks and articles of food;
“date or palm wine in its fresh and unfermented state” (Frederick Lees, Ph.D., in Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature, John Kitto, Ed. , 1880, I, p. 585; this material is indispensable for the careful student); and,
intoxicating beverages from non-grape products (e.g., date palm juice and grains - cf. Isa. 5:11).
Thus, with reference to the passage under discussion, Dr. Lees comments that: “. . . shechar might also include the sense of ‘sweet-fruit,’ as in Deut. 14:26, where it and yayin are placed amongst the tithe-offerings as solids to be eaten” (p. 584). While this is not the general view of this controversial verse, it certainly is not beyond the realm of possibility. In view of the numerous warnings against the dangers of strong drink in the Old Testament, does it seem likely that Moses would encourage its use in a celebration to Jehovah?

Third, though it is conceded that total abstinence was not demanded under the Mosaic regime, such affords no comfort to the modern social drinker. The Mosaic economy dealt with man in his rudimentary state of spiritual development. Witness the accommodation of the Law to slavery, concubinage, polygamy, capricious divorce, etc. The Mosaic code was a necessary preparatory system that looked forward to time of greater moral responsibility (cf. Acts 17:30).

Perhaps an illustration will help in clarifying this point. Under the levitical system, the priests were forbidden the use of any fermented beverages as they ministered in their priestly functions (Lev. 10:9). Now, however, under the reign of Christ, all Christians are priests (1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6) and we are continually functioning in the capacity of offering spiritual sacrifices to God (Rom. 12:1,2; Heb. 13:15; 1 Pet. 2:5). How ought Christians to conduct themselves as ministers of a greater priesthood?

Consider this interesting quotation from the Encyclopedia of Christianity (pp. 111,457).

“Modern study of the effects of alcohol shows that it is an anesthetic, which means that it affects the higher centers of the brain that regulate morals and judgment before it affects perception or motor coordination. Christians should know and be aware that even minimal use has some influence upon these higher centers. Also, alcoholic beverages are generally used in much the same way and for the same reasons as dangerous drugs. Since man has the inherent tendency to excuse himself, these factors should cause Christians to question strongly any claims of liberty with regard to their use.”
When all of the facts are considered, the spiritually mature individual will have no difficulty in making the choice regarding the consumption of beverage alcohol.

Source: http://www.christiancourier.com/questions/alcoholQuestion.htm


This states my position pretty well.

Alcohol is called a spirit for good reason. While one may not get drunk as was mentioned, even a glass of wine or one beer has proven to impair the mental ability of an individual. The stumbling block is a concern as well. Of course, if you choose to hang with folks who believe its okay to drink, just don't get drunk, they you probably won't cause anyone to stumble.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but there are two instances in scripture where drinking wine is encouraged: one is in Psalms where one is instructed to give a dying man wine to ease his pain, and the other was Paul's instruction to Timothy to take a little wine for the stomach. Many believe Timothy had a stomach or intestinal malady and the wine acted as a medicine. Like taking Nyquil or cough syrup today.

The military issue doesn't hold water for me. I've been in the Navy for 22 years and have never had a problem telling someone I don't drink.

Why not take the moral high road and abstain altogether? Even non-Christians question the drinking of a professing Christian. Hmmmm.

 

u 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.


Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.


Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; [or] if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:


Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn [it] into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:


Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

 

Only in certain parts of America. Many think Christians are stupid for believing such things.

Israel grew grapes? Do you really think they were just to eat.

My parents grew grapes for a living. I can't think of one farmer who had a drinking problem. Most of the time it was the city folks.

In many countries they serve wine for communion at Baptist churches. To assume what you say to be right then Baptist churches must have a lot of drunks if one drink leads to another.

 

Only in certain parts of America. Many think Christians are stupid for believing such things.

Israel grew grapes? Do you really think they were just to eat.

In many countries they serve wine for communion at Baptist churchess. </font>[/QUOTE]In many churches across the world, they serve grape juice for communion.

 

Wine is a blessing from God.

KJV Deut 7:12 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

KJV Judges 9:13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?

KJV Psalms 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

KJV Proverbs 3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

Every reference to wine in the Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]You left this one out:

Romans 13:13
[It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.