Alcohol

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Brother Ian:
In many churches across the world, they serve grape juice for communion.

From your profile it says you are SBC so you should know that wine is served in many countries for communion.

Did you ever check the statement of faith at SEBTS when Paige Patterson was President? Taker a lok at what they believed about elders and serving wine.

If you will do a little work in the history of the SBC you will find that First Baptist Church Dallas served wine in a common cup. Even some Baptist churches ahd spitoons. When I was a kid the smoke rose up in a cloud at the Baptist church among the deacons.

I doubt you have tasted real grape juice. If you have you wouldn't believe such things. Ask your pastor if they serve real grape juice. I don't know of one seller of so called grape juice that produces actual grape juice. It is always doctored up and named grape juice.

2/3 of the pastors and people in churches are fat. Does that mean they shouldn't eat? No, it just means they shouild eat less and exercise more.

 

[le bel]

So, Scripture does support the drinking of wine/alcohol, but with limitations? Those who don't are just exercising their choice to abstain alltogether.

I see both sides, hmm.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by le bel:
So, scripture does support the drinking of wine/alcohol, but with limitations?

Yes, scripture permits this.

Originally posted by le bel:
Those who don't are just exercising their choice to abstain alltogether.

Absolutely. That's their right. I abstain frequently.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Le bel dear, this is one of those issues that you just have to pray through till the Holy Spirit gives you peace about it. If you ask for God's guidance He will give it.

It may be at this point in your life that the best choice is total abstinance. If abstinance seems to give the best witness to those "partiers" around you, then hold fast. Remember, the important thing here isn't whether or not drinking moderately is a sin, but rather will taking that drink in public be glorifying to God. This is a much harder thing to decide.

It may be that you will push someone further away from God if they think you are abstaining just to prove that you are holier than they are. On the other hand, there may be one who sees you take that drink and is horrified because you are "supposed to be a Christian!".

IMO, it would have been fine for you to celebrate turning 21 with a glass of wine. There were many appropriate venues for such. You could have had a glass with dinner or in a private moment and the end of the evening with your husband.

If you do choose to drink, there will also be the physical reality of how much alcohol you body can tolerate without making you drunk. For me, one glass is it! I have a very low tolerance for alcohol in any form, from wine to cough syrup. My husband on the other hand can handle two or even a bit more if he's not driving without being drunk. His limit is one though, because he is diabetic and alcohol consupmtion greatly increaces the amount of sugar in his blood stream(this is BAD).

Now that you know our tolorances, how often do we really drink? Hmmm, had to think about it. I believe the last time I had a drink was the last time I had a bad upper respiratory infection. A bit of whiskey in my tea or coffee liquer in my coffee works wonders for me to calm down the cough and help me sleep. Other than that....well we're mostly homebodies and don't go out much so I can't remember. The last time my husband had a drink was when we were at Disney nearly two years ago.

However we live in a society where one is neither pressured to drink or not drink. All of our friends consider it an individual decision and leave it at that. But this comes with maturity and I have 20 years on you.

You make your own decision with your husband and then stick to it. A simple "we don't drink because it doesn't fit out lifestyle" should be enough to stop the inquistion.

Also, may I suggest that if your husband is tired of the pressure that he just begin to not socialize with the people doing the pressure. There are other people out there that feel the same as you, it just take a bit of time to find them out.

 

[le bel]

Thank you, that does help!!

 

[blackbird]

My dad and mom were "teatoters" as well as I am---but I remember growing up---we'd go to church fellowship's---no booze whatsoever---that's a "gimmie"

But daddy also worked for the phone company---and time to time we'd go to some of those company "wing-dings"---Cajun style---lots and lots of booze and boozers----but there my daddy was---with his friends from work---but with no beer can in his hand---nor no beer can in my momma's hand-----nobody put them under any pressure to "have one"----Job security did not rest on which beer you liked--JAX or Falstaff---at the phone company fellowships(which was always at a local park and never at the company buildings---no drinking was permitted in the buildings or on the grounds---

No---job security didn't depend on who was drinking and who refused---job security depended on what kind of a job was done on Monday-Friday's--between the hours of 7am and 4pm!!

 

[richard n koustas]

i spent many years in a church that served grape juice next to the wine in the little cups every sunday, so, one had a choice.

now i attend a juice-only baptist church. i don't know what it is, but i miss the wine.

 

[menageriekeeper]

My folks were tee totalers too Blackbird. I don't remember many times being taken into a restaurant that even served alcohol.

But....the best pizza in town was made by what was technically a bar. I was probably 12 before I realized that pizza wasn't alway a takeout food!

Job security wasn't a problem for my folks either. Family relations were though. I grew up not knowing a good many of my younger cousins, because before they were born the arguements over drinking, dancing and other legalistic things severed the relationship between my parents and theirs. My parents attitude that they were all bound for hell because of these things, caused a lot of bitterness and resentment.

They both had large families. Mother was one of 14 and Dad was one of 5. That is a lot of relationships to turn ones back on because of an issue like drinking. I have well over 75 cousins, some I've never met that will never see Christ in me, because of my parents stand on drinking and such.

 

[nate]

I was wondering I notice all the post about beer and wine but just wondering is it acceptable to drink stonger drinks. I am underage so don't have any opinion. In my home now it's unacceptable to drink. I agree the Bible to my knowledge says nothing against alcohol.

 

[Petrel]

There's really no practical difference between one drink of liquor and a couple of glasses of wine. As long as you're not getting drunk, I don't think it matters.

 

[gb93433]

Seems to me that from what I read some believe that if one takes a drink it will lead to a drinking problem. That is simply not so.

Isn't that like saying that once you eat food you you will become a glutton? However for 2/3 of America that is true. Why doesn't the fat preacher who harps on drinking proclaim out of the same mouth the same things against gluttony. He doesn't because he prides himself on not taking a drink but cannot preach against gluttony because he is like a whiskey barrel on two sticks and can't preach without huffing and puffing. Some of those preachers are so bad that they gasp for air at the end of each sentence when they preach.

Don't you sometimes wonder what a doctor thinks when he sees porky pig and then on Sunday porky tells people how to live. If porky didn't eat so much he could give more to missions and those who need it. He loudly proclaims don't do. . . don't do. . . but then he doesn't have control over his eating. What kind of a message does that send?

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by gb93433:
Seems to me that from what I read some believe that if one takes a drink it will lead to a drinking problem. That is simply not so.

Isn't that like saying that once you eat food you you will become a glutton? However for 2/3 of America that is true. Why doesn't the fat preacher who harps on drinking proclaim out of the same mouth the same things against gluttony. He doesn't because he prides himself on not taking a drink but cannot preach against gluttony because he is like a whiskey barrel on two sticks and can't preach without huffing and puffing. Some of those preachers are so bad that they gasp for air at the end of each sentence when they preach.

Don't you sometimes wonder what a doctor thinks when he sees porky pig and then on Sunday porky tells people how to live. If porky didn't eat so much he could give more to missions and those who need it. He loudly proclaims don't do. . . don't do. . . but then he doesn't have control over his eating. What kind of a message does that send?

Here---here!!!! I resemble these remarks!!! My doctor tells me that I can eat and get away with it---but at the same time---I tell him that he can't sin and get away with it!!! Now!! There!!

 

[NiteShift]

It looks like Le Bel has gotten plenty of advice here, maybe more than she really wanted! But that never stopped me from throwing in my own two cents worth

)

As several have pointed out, drinking alcohol is not prohibited in the bible. Jesus drank wine occasionally, and Paul said that all things were permitted in moderation. I think we all recognize that.

But here is the thing: young guys in the military don't usually have a couple of drinks and then discuss the game or whatever. An awful lot of them get totally wasted, at least once a week. I remember when I was in Germany years ago, a kid got so drunk he fell out the 3rd story window of the barracks and was killed. Parties often turn into all-night guzzling, and major hangovers the next day.

Le Bel, you are right to be concerned about it all. My own advice is, you and your husband go to the parties now and then. Have a drink or two if you want. Then go on home. You're really not missing all that much!

 

[SAMPLEWOW]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Then I hope the responses that follow are of help.

Scripture is clear: Consumption of alcohol is permitted. Abuse of alcohol is not.

What about the part in the bible that says don't be a stumbling block to your brother?

 

[Petrel]

That's already been addressed multiple times.

 

[Brother Ian]

I think the stumbling block part doesn't matter to most people.

In 1 Corinthians 10:23 Paul said, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

 

[TexasSky]

Why are you drinking?

I have friends from Europe who grew up in a culture where a glass of wine was standard at meals. I've never seen them get drunk. They seem to drink for taste, and they seem to limit it to the meal.

I know some senior citizens who take a glass of wine because their doctors (or a magazine) suggested it was good for them. They don't over indulge either.

Most people drink for far less admirable reasons though:
That "get drunk" feeling.
That excuse to act wild.
That desire to fit in.
The "high" or "low" of being drunk.

I think anything that results in impared judgment would go against God's desire for you.

Christ had a glass of wine with meals. Christ never got drunk.

 

[SeriousOne]

A BIBLICAL BACKGROUND AS TO THE "MEANING" OF WINE AND STRONG DRINK: (different from today!)

Should Christians Drink Alcohol?

I. Two General Questions
A. Is today’s wine the same a s it was in the Bible?
1. Words for wine in the N.T. and O.T.
a. Greek=oinos (oinos) or Hebrew=yayin
1. Grape juice boiled until a syrup or paste (no alcohol)
a. Mixed with water still 0% alcohol unless allowed to set at room
temperature which caused to start fermenting; yield 2-3% alcohol
b. Timothy told: “Drink no longer water, but use a little oinos for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.” 1 Tim. 5:23
2. Words for new wine in the N.T. and O.T.
a. Greek=gleucos (???????) or Hebrew=tarash
1. Grape squeezed and allowed to ferment: yield 11% maximum alcohol
content.
a. Mixed at 3:1 ratio which yielded ?3% alcohol (often diluted 10x)
compares to today’s “near beer” which can be purchased by anyone.
1. This is the reference to 1 Tim. 3:3 where the instruction to believers is to “not stay ‘near’ wine” (ie. sit drinking it all day which could eventually lead to intoxication simply because of the quantity.)
3. Words for strong drink or liquor in the N.T. and O.T.
a. Greek=sikera 4608(??????) or Hebrew=shakar 7941 (dbs) intensely fermented, an intoxicant
1. TheBible always speaks negatively of strong drink or liquor (up to 11%
through natual fermentation.)
2. Strong drink or liquor equated with Pagan or Barbarian worship
(ie. the cult of Baacus which used strong drink or liquor in its worship
of false gods and in its orgies.)
3. Not even a consideration for the believer in N.T. Scripture

B. What is my motive for drinking alcohol?



Oinos (wine) found in the following places in the N.T.:

Matt. 9: 17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Mark 2: 22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
Mark 15:23 And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not. (The Lord Jesus Christ while nailed to the Cross)
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. (speaking of John the Baptist)
Luke 5:37-39 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. 38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. 39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Luke 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
Luke 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
John 4:46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
Romans 14: 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
1 Tim 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 8 ¶ Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1 Tim. 5: 23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Titus 2: 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
1Peter 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
See also: Revelation 6:6; 14:8, 10; 16:19; 17:2; 18:3,13

Gleucos (new wine) found in the N.T.:
Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Sikera (strong drink) found in the N. T.
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

 

[SeriousOne]

Sorry for all the (????????) that show up in my last post. Unfortunately the program used here does not show the words in either Greek or Hebrew which is what the (????????) represent in my text.

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Christ had a glass of wine with meals. Christ never got drunk.

Did He??? At every meal??? I believe we're stretching and bending Scripture a tad bit here---when there is no such thing as a "Scripture Stretcher"---nor a "Scripture Bender"

What about that time---Post-Resurrection---when He called for the disciples out of the boat---they were on the lake--He was on the shore----had a fire going(I suppose we want to assume He started the fire with His trusty Zippo, huh??) and the fish cooking---no mention there of any wine, is there??