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JonC, man is spiritually dead because the Law has condemned him to spiritual death. Paul said that sin in not imputed where there is no Law, but the sin of Adam and Eve were under the Law of God, not the Law of Moses that was yet to come, but under the direct Law of God to Adam and Eve when He...

Ok, let me explain my view of the Law according to Scripture. When I use the word Law I'm referring to the 10 Commandments, which are God's standard of righteousness, the moral Law. But the word "Law" can expand to the judicial and and ceremonial Law. All of which is the Law of Moses given to...

We see the Law differently, the Law condemned man to death, spiritual death, that is the curse that Christ became. Christ could not spiritually die because He never sinned, but He certainly took our place suffering the wrath of God that we deserved. We simply disagree.

LOL, I'm not going to argue, JonC, I can only see you reasoning your way out of 1+1=2. Doctrine is determined by Scripture explaining Scripture, and I see a clear explanation on this.

It should be obvious, BF, why do you even question it. God is speaking of the righteousness needed to enter into His Kingdom. It's a spiritual death, why, why do you carry on this way?

I can see that the curse of the Law carried God's wrath, and Christ was made that curse. That's all I need to know.

BF, God bless your soul, you're almost as stubborn as me, but not quite. Let's read that Scripture and you tell me if the word "die" is physical or spiritual. Ezekiel 33:11-13 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked...

There are an accumulation of verses throughout the Scripture that hint at it. What confirms for me that Christ took our wrath is that Gal. 3:13 tells us that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us. Then in Rom. 4:15 Paul tells us the Law works wrath. Christ...

Where in Scripture do I find God leaving man to perish in his sin without reaching out to him in mercy? I'm pretty sure that is not in God's plan, but some believe it is.

LOL, only you, JonC, could have pulled off that one.

Please, BF, I'm not up for such nonsense at the present time.

I don't want to argue, JF. I may have even believed that had I not seen the sign posts along the way waving the red flags. There are so many contradicting verse in Scripture plus a totally different way of interpreting those predestination verses that are in theme with the sign posts.

I think that is just about as close to the truth as we can get.

The miracles keep rolling in!

But God is worried about it, the reason for so much striving with His chosen people all through the OT. Down through the centuries almost all of Israel died apart from God, though He strived long with them, as the Scripture says. He cried out to them in mercy, "for why will you die (spiritual...

It's true, miracles do still happen. I thought it impossible.

Definitely not bored with it, theology has been my interest as far back as I can remember as a child. I don't believe that we sinned with Adam, but I do believe that Christ bore our sins and took the punishment we deserved. I once heard a preacher ask the congregation (I was there) why did...

I didn't know those specific details, I'm continuously learning something here!

The Scripture says we are born in sin, not that we are born sinners. There's a difference.

Lucky me, it could have gone the other way.