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Well, you know how it is with us humans, we've had around 2000 years to mess it up. We have to wade through a swamp of false doctrine to find the truth, and then can't agree on the truth. It's a good thing for us that correct doctrine throughout the Scripture is not the requirement for our...

You see, easternstar, when God told Adam "you shall surly die" He meant it and couldn't go back on it. His Law states "the wages of sin is death" and Adam was told directly. Man had to die (spiritual death), but He sent another man to take our sins upon Him to pay the debt man owed to God...

I'm sorry you feel that way! The Scripture reeks of PSA, any other way is a violation of God's Law. God upheld His Law out of love for mankind, and His Christ willingly gave up His life to secure life for us.

Is He a monster God in that He allowed Christ to suffer in our place and it pleased Him? Or is He pleased with the results of what Christ achieved for man to live?

God allowed Christ to be our substitute to take our place and that meant death. Your tone is revealing in that you believe God did something against His will, when actuality "it pleased God to bruise Him."

How could it be any other theory than PSA considering Paul said He was made a curse for us? The penalty on the curse of the Law was the wrath of God on man for his sin, which meant death. "The wages of sin is death." Christ has never sinned, so He was not bound to the Law of Sin and Death as...

I hope he wasn't relying on that experience and quote to save him on judgment day.

God provides for the conversion. Just as He provided a sacrifice for Abraham (a ram caught in the brush) when God tested his faith in sacrificing his son (sounds familiar doesn't it). The test was not for God, He knew what Abraham would do, as He knows what we will do. Even for those who...

I've never thought to question it ether, although I was aware of the various theories. I know from experience that I have to many thoughts of my own and fall short of total surrender in being led. But as Paul said, I push forward, but in my case praying He will break though my ignorance.

Yes, I certainly agree! Jon, I have a rule that I've lived by all of my adult life. I believe what I believe by faith in being led by the Holy Spirit. I admit that Charlie24 gets in the way at times, and maybe quite often of being led in truth. The Holy Spirit has not confirmed in my spirit...

We are looking through different lenses and see a totally different God, based on God doing the choosing vs the free will given man for him to choose. The Scripture you quoted in Rom. 9 is dealing with the Jews finding fault with God in being dealt with the same as the Gentiles. God has laid...

Once again we go back to Rom. 8, Eph. 1, 2 Thess. 2, where we took separate paths in the application of God's mercy and grace on man. Everything is seen different through that lens.

You my friend do not understand the principle of Rom. 9:18. It's based on God having mercy on those who believe and obey Him, and doubling down with hardness on those who choose not the believe and obey Him. Somewhat as Pharaoh did.

There are wondrous things in the Scripture, but our eyes must be unveiled to them through the Spirit. It's the Spirit that cuts to the heart of man the truth of the Gospel when it's given. It's the Spirit that guides the believer in truth after conversion. Without the Spirit revealing this...

The letter (OT Law) kills man because man can't keep those laws in his fallen condition. The Spirit (NC in Christ) gives life in Christ keeping the Law for us by faith in Him.

The last sentence is where my argument begins with Calvin, although I agree with him on many points. It was necessary for Christ to come, but not because of God's sovereign decree that Adam would fall, but because Adam freely chose to believe Satan rather than God.

Calvin was dead on the money in where man stands with God and what God has done for us to be redeemed. It's the application part that I disagree with. In that application there has been some false doctrine established. That's what I'm trying to point out in my rants and explanations.

I'm sure I don't have it all worked out, but until I can see something that fits other than PSA I'm sticking with it. The Calvinists have a completely different theology throughout the Scripture although I do agree with some things they have concluded.

I suppose it is for those who can't accept the realities of Hell.

And that's just about the bottom line< JonC.