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To purify sacred space?????????? But, I'm sure Calvin never mentioned it so........

Thanks a lot Jon and Agedman for your contributions to these threads....Obviously, they were no doubt tiring to engage in at times, but I have found them illuminating and you guys have brought up serious Biblical points worthy of meaningful consideration. And, as always, I am only 1 of a...

Right, and condemning Christ to be "punished" for sin (perfectly righteous and without sin) is unjust by definition, and God does not do that....Is that part of the argument?

Thanks, Jon....Lots to think about. I have often had the idea that the New Testament use of the word "law" for "Torah" automatically puts us Westerners at a disadvantage when understanding atonement. Your observation that Calvin was a lawyer and predisposed to read the word "law" a million times...

That.....That's what I'm asking. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm trying to understand. God doesn't "forgive" given PSA......He bloodies the nose of someone else.

I'm not asking about "wrath". I get that "wrath" is not the same as justice. I think of justice as impassionate. Wrath is not, by definition. I can easily accept that even if God's disposition towards man is wrathful, nonetheless, he didn't need to vent rage upon the Son so that his...

O.K....I think you guys are confusing me a little. I'm asking only one simple question, and you guys are giving me more than I'm asking for (at the moment). It seems to me that punishing sin simply isn't forgiving sin. If God truly forgives us, than he didn't punish another in our place. In...

This part, agedman....is the kind of statement I'm keying in on in other words. This is what I am asking about and grossly over-simplifying so that I can understand what you guys, in part, are arguing.

To put it simply: I'm getting from you guys that you might argue that PSA makes nonsense of the word "forgive" and instead substitutes that the punishment of the crime was simply paid by another (an innocent in this case, being Christ). Thus God "forgave" nothing.

Right, thanks....so, no, God hasn't "forgiven" the punch in the nose he's just assuaged his wrath against the offender by punching an innocent person instead (but one who volunteered, and they agreed collectively to resolve it that way).

It helps.....I have been reading a lot of yours and John's posts (certainly not all of them!) And it has gotten me thinking. I know I'm not the only one. For instance: Vs. 14 you quoted: Did God "CANCEL" the debt (as that verse states) or did the Son "PAY" the debt. Those are not the same...

Thanks, so...you are arguing that (in a sense) Scripture which states that God "forgives" is nonsense given PST. Not that you are putting it that way. Am I correct? You seem to be explaining that Aquinas and the Reformers made sense of "forgiveness" as long as it was the "person" being...

I have a question that I hope both Jon C and Agedman would answer: I have been perusing your threads on atonement for a while (not exhaustively) and found a lot of what has been said to be compelling. I also have always been taught and more or less assumed PST. One question this conversation...

I don't care what your definition is... This is not an argument I will have with you. Define "heresy" at your leisure. I find nothing you say sufficiently interesting to argue with. Define it how you want. Good day sir.

Correct. Atheism isn't "heresy". Jehova's Witnesses are "heretics". Atheists aren't. You may not like those definitions. O.K. fine. I don't care.

Atheism isn't "heresy". It's non-belief. Atheism is simply a positive assertion that there is no such thing as a "God" (as normally defined in Western Culture) Namely an Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnibenevolent creator of the Universe. You undermine yourself by intentionally and repeatedly...

Yes, man came alive...he now possessed the Nephesh or "soul" or that "life-force" whatever which makes him a living being. This same Nephesh or "soul" spoken of is also given to animals. What is your Point? Yes there is....Genesis There are literally scores (probably hundreds of them). Let's...

The fire is the eternal wrath of God.... For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. (Deut. 4:24) The "worms" are maggots....when maggots finish consuming their meal....They become flies. derp de derp.

Please provide Scripture for that assertion....

Also...I know archaic English better than you. It was never that common an English archaicism. It existed...I'd heard it long before you made it an everyday catchphrase....but, it wasn't that common. You've belabored it for over a decade....come up with something else. I'm not calling your...