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Tertullian “I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. HE WAS MASTER OF HIS OWN WILL AND POWER…for a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a...

Clement of Alexandria “Neither praises nor censures, neither rewards nor punishments, are right IF THE SOUL DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER OF INCLINATION AND DISINCLINATION AND IF EVIL IS INVOLUNTARY…IN NO RESPECT IS GOD THE AUTHOR OF EVIL. But since FREE CHOICE AND INCLINATION ORIGINATE...

Justin Martyr: “For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed…”

You can explain that to Clement when we get to heaven, but I doubt he (or even you for that matter) will be concerned with the semantics of Calvinism's ever so nuanced views regarding the "drawing, compelling, irresistible, effectual, sovereign, unchanging, unstoppable, immutable" acts of God in...

If you'd like to once again hash out the age old debate over the interpretation of this passage in John, fine by me, but start a new thread. Plus, you beg the question by presuming that the view of those students and closest to the apostles were 'annulling' rather than affirming the view of...

ORIGEN c.185-254 De Principiis Preface "Now it ought to be known that the holy apostles, in preaching the faith of Christ, delivered themselves with the utmost clearness on certain points which they believed to be necessary to everyone . . . This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the...

Unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not responsible for their actions. (Justin Martyr, 160 AD, 1.177)

"To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace." (Clement of Alexandria, 190 AD )

How about we take one quote at a time and watch how the Calvinists here attempt to twist, spin and explain away the clear intent: IRENAEUS c.130-200 [He was an early Church Father and apologist, and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. He was a hearer...

Icon, Was Reform scholar and historian, Loraine Boettner, looking at history with an agenda and despitely attempting to rewrite history when he wrote: Calvinism in History: Before the Reformation by Loraine Boettner Loraine Boettner It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine...

Faith is the same for both of us. We both believe God's divine aid is needed for us to have it. We both believe its a gifted ability..i.e. must be enabled. We simply disagree as to the irresistibly of the means God grants this ability. Must a gift be irresistibly applied for the giver to get...

So that 'exercise' is not consider 'a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g?' Forgive me, but the word 'exercise' sounds like a lot more WORK than even believing does. :) I'm trying to get you to admit that faith isn't a work because it doesn't merit anything. A WORK as in 'works based salvation' is in reference...

Yet when there are two competing interpretations being considered, knowing that none of the immediate followers of the apostles agreed with your particular take, certainly suggests you may want to reconsider the OTHER view.

I like that. Good stuff!

By that definition, then even Calvinists must affirm we are saved by Grace through works, because don't you affirm that man must believe before being saved? Granted, that faith may flow effectually from a regenerated heart, it is still 'anything' that man must do. True, apart from the powerful...

Depends on your definition of Original Sin and your use of the analogy regarding 'death.' I'm fine with the 'again' application above for the same reasons you are, but I can still affirm Original Sin in that we are all born in need of a savior. Even Adam was made with a need for Christ...the...

They could fit only if you proofed texted them like Calvinists do the scripture, IMO. But if you look at the contexts of these quotes (which I welcome) and the MANY others quotes there is little hope for you to establish any measure of support of even the 4 point modified version of...

Did you read my post? It doesn't appear as if you did. Also, can you define 'works' for us so that we know that you are able to draw the distinction that I clearly laid out in my post? Thanks

I don't blame you for not wanting to 'get into' it, as even John Calvin himself affirmed God's love for every person. Some "out-calvin" John Calvin around here.

indeed... :wavey: