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The kings are the leaders of the empires/kingdoms at the time they fell, whoever they were. I told you we won't agree on anything, we are total Biblical opposites.

Maybe in the next life.

I thought the 5 kingdoms that fell were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and Greece. The one that was in John's day was Rome. The one to come is the Federation of Nations/ the ten horns that bring the anti-christ into power. And the 8th of course the anti-christ himself. But what do I know?

Ok, we're worlds apart with a space between another world apart. We will not agree on anything!

Ok, for you it's symbolic.

@SovereignGrace Let me ask you a question assuming you are post-trib. In Rev. 20 John said he seen the souls of them who were beheaded and they refused to take the mark of the beast or worship the beast. And they lived and reigned 1000 years with Christ. John says this is the first...

SG, I think you also know that the Rapture timing cannot be explained from a single passage. It takes a complete overview of all related Scripture to place it together. Why don't you just tell me the problem you see with pre-trib in that context, the overall context.

I could ask you the same in whichever view you see it. But I think you know if it were plainly written there wouldn't be a pre, mid, post-trib view.

Do you mean 4:17?

OK, we can move on then.

You need to address John of Japan's last post. He can help you understand better than I can.

@37818 If you will just drop my last post for now and follow through with John and answer the questions the best you can, you're going to see things a new way. I guarantee it.

@37818 There is the first resurrection that takes place in Rev. 20 at the return of Christ, and "the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were expired." These that were raised up are the tribulation saints and they will reign with Christ 1000 years. We know this because it...

That's just it, there is none. A mid-trib has possibilities but I believe falls short, but the post-trib, nope. The biggest problem with it is that it promotes the wrath of God on the Church contrary to verses that say just the opposite. The mid-trib does at least make a huge cut in that...

I'm thinking it's more than a premise, but if your mind is made up, well.

I know what you mean and I thiink you're right. I just wanted him to understand there are statements in the Scripture that cannot be denied that support a pre-trib Rapture.

We think alike.

Awww man, don't get me started on that crowd. When I think of any of those plus some others like them, I think of "for the love of money is the root of all evil."

I also believe this is explains the misunderstanding by many when James said that Abraham was justified by works through offering his son (would be offering). Abraham was justified by grace through faith alone, James is showing us that Abraham's works proved he was justified. James is showing...

Yep, we can be strange to them too.