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Featured τελευταω occurs 12 times.

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by 37818, Feb 5, 2022.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    In Matthew 9:18 it is "even now dead" versus "even now dies." In Acts of the Apostles 7:15 is "Jacob
    went down into Egypt, and died" versus "Jacob went down into Egypt, and dies."
    The same Greek verb and tense translated two different ways "dead" and "died" or in one way "dies" and "dies."
     
  2. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    You are changing the greek tense.


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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    And what has that to do with the little girl not having been dead?
     
  4. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    If Jesus did not raise anyone from the dead, why did he tell the Baptist he did?

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  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe not for that Greek verb. In that tense that verb is only used twice in the whole New Testament. And it makes sense in English translated as I showed.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What has that to do with the little girl who was not really dead?
     
  7. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    The number of times used does not effect what it means. We know what Aorist verbs look like. We now what the present tense verbs look like. It does not matter what can make sense in English. What did Matthew write? It wasn't the present tense.

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  8. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    She was dead. This was the dead raised that he told John about. Why would Matthew write a narrative where Jesus claims to raise the dead and not tell us about the raising of the dead? You have now left Jesus presenting an unsupported claim in his ministry.

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  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That it is in the aorist tense is not in dispute. How that Greek word should be rendered is, I think in question. It was not mearly that word but the adverb used before it too.
    αρτι ετελευτησεν. And the fact the Mark used εχει where Luke used απεθνησκεν. Three different translations into the Greek from the Aramaic or Hebrew which was spoken.
    Gill writes regading Matthews use of the adverb to mean near being dead. ". . . Her case seems to be differently represented; Mark says, she was "at the point of death", or "in the last extremity"; and Luke, that she "lay dying": but Matthew here says, that she was "even now dead", which may be easily reconciled: for not to observe, that αρτι signifies "near", and the phrase may be rendered, "she is near dead", or just expiring, the case was this; when Jairus left his house, his daughter was in the agony of death, just ready to give up the ghost; so, that he concluded, by the time he was with Jesus, she had made her exit; as it appears she had, by a messenger, who brought the account of her death, before they could get to the house." Maybe the adverb translated "even now" should be translated differnently not the verb. ". . . near dead."
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus explicitly said she was not dead. As pointed out all three accounts say this.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The point being I think that verb can be translated the same being the same tense in both Matthew 9:18 and Acts of the Apostles 7:15.
    And also the meaning used by Matthew 9:18, Mark 5:24 and Luke 8:42 can be translated to be similar even thought the three writers use of different Greek words to translate the common phrase used by Jairus.
     
  12. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Then who did Jesus raise from the dead before chapter 11? You have created a major problem in your attempt to translate an aorist as a present tense verb. You have dodged the question twice.

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  13. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    From Jesus' point a view she was not dead. From man's view she was. That is why he can say Lazarus is asleep and dead at the same time. [From Jesus' view he was asleep, but from the dicsiples view he was dead] The girl died physically, but she was not dead, because Jesus controls life and death. He was going to bring her back. This is why Jesus can say in John 6 and 11 that those in Him never die....yet they do die physically. Jesus will raise them from the dead.

    No one is ever truly dead when Christ is involved.



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    #33 McCree79, Feb 6, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2022
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  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You are supposing a non-existent problem. You think because the pasage in Matthew 11:5, says ". . . the dead{plural} are raised up . . ." are not identified there is a truth problem.
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was tell the others she was not dead. If perchance He had brought the girl from the dead it would be prior to Him telling them that she is not dead.
     
  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Your rendering seems awkward . I suggest "ended his life" or something similar, since the cognate noun is τέλος, "end." I don't normally use Thayer's, but he has "come to an end" for τελευτάω (p. 619). BAGD has for τελευτή, another noun cognate, "end, a euphemism for death," (p. 810).

    If you want a modern euphemism for death, folks nowadays say "passed," so that would be a possibility.
     
    #36 John of Japan, Feb 7, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2022
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  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @John of Japan,
    What drove this were a number of things.
    The Matthew translation to the Greek to English, "even now dead." Where Mark's Greek to English, "at the point of death." And Luke 8:42, Greek to English, "lay a dying." In Acts 7:15, regarding Jacob, "died" being the very word Matthew used. Gill thinks the adverb for "even now" better rendered "near." "Near dead."
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Good points. But I still see "dies" as awkward English. I am not a purist, and don't object to awkward English if it is the only way to be faithful to the text. However, I think this is different.

    We have different Greek in Matthew 9:18 (ἄρτι ἐτελεύτησεν, "now has ended") and Mark 5:22 (ἐσχάτως ἔχει, literally, "has an end"). I suggest that they both refer to actual death, but are two similar euphemisms, maybe coming from the same Aramaic.

    As for Acts 7:15, I'm not sure why you think simply "died" is not okay. "Went" and "died" are both aorist, but "dies" is a present tense, so the phrase then sounds awkward.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I have seen news paper obituaries where "dies" is used in the past tense. Truthfully "dies" as I proposed using it and as used in the seen obituaries is not found standard dictionaries. Maybe Gill's "near" for the adverb is the better solution. I do think the common translation topically being used in Matthew 9:18 is an error.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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