τελευταω occurs 12 times.

[37818]

It makes zero sense, it is not a present tense verb. Jacob and the father "died" past tense. Why would anyone use a present tense verb? Matthew didn't.

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In Matthew 9:18 it is "even now dead" versus "even now dies." In Acts of the Apostles 7:15 is "Jacob
went down into Egypt, and died" versus "Jacob went down into Egypt, and dies."
The same Greek verb and tense translated two different ways "dead" and "died" or in one way "dies" and "dies."

 

[McCree79]

In Matthew 9:18 it is "even now dead" versus "even now dies." In Acts of the Apostles 7:15 is "Jacob
went down into Egypt, and died" versus "Jacob went down into Egypt, and dies."
The same Greek verb and tense translated two different ways "dead" and "died" or in one way "dies" and "dies."

You are changing the greek tense.


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[37818]

Who did Jesus raise from the dead before Matthew 11? He told the Baptist he had done such.

And what has that to do with the little girl not having been dead?

 

[McCree79]

And what has that to do with the little girl not having been dead?

If Jesus did not raise anyone from the dead, why did he tell the Baptist he did?

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[37818]

You are changing the greek tense.


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Maybe not for that Greek verb. In that tense that verb is only used twice in the whole New Testament. And it makes sense in English translated as I showed.

 

[37818]

If Jesus did not raise anyone from the dead, why did he tell the Baptist he did?

What has that to do with the little girl who was not really dead?

 

[McCree79]

Maybe not for that Greek verb. In that tense that verb is only used twice in the whole New Testament. And it makes sense in English translated as I showed.

The number of times used does not effect what it means. We know what Aorist verbs look like. We now what the present tense verbs look like. It does not matter what can make sense in English. What did Matthew write? It wasn't the present tense.

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[McCree79]

What has that to do with the little girl who was not really dead?

She was dead. This was the dead raised that he told John about. Why would Matthew write a narrative where Jesus claims to raise the dead and not tell us about the raising of the dead? You have now left Jesus presenting an unsupported claim in his ministry.

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[37818]

The number of times used does not effect what it means. We know what Aorist verbs look like. We now what the present tense verbs look like. It does not matter what can make sense in English. What did Matthew write? It wasn't the present tense.

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That it is in the aorist tense is not in dispute. How that Greek word should be rendered is, I think in question. It was not mearly that word but the adverb used before it too.
αρτι ετελευτησεν. And the fact the Mark used εχει where Luke used απεθνησκεν. Three different translations into the Greek from the Aramaic or Hebrew which was spoken.
Gill writes regading Matthews use of the adverb to mean near being dead. ". . . Her case seems to be differently represented; Mark says, she was "at the point of death", or "in the last extremity"; and Luke, that she "lay dying": but Matthew here says, that she was "even now dead", which may be easily reconciled: for not to observe, that αρτι signifies "near", and the phrase may be rendered, "she is near dead", or just expiring, the case was this; when Jairus left his house, his daughter was in the agony of death, just ready to give up the ghost; so, that he concluded, by the time he was with Jesus, she had made her exit; as it appears she had, by a messenger, who brought the account of her death, before they could get to the house." Maybe the adverb translated "even now" should be translated differnently not the verb. ". . . near dead."

 

[37818]

She was dead. This was the dead raised that he told John about. Why would Matthew write a narrative where Jesus claims to raise the dead and not tell us about the raising of the dead? You have now left Jesus presenting an unsupported claim in his ministry.

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Jesus explicitly said she was not dead. As pointed out all three accounts say this.

 

[37818]

You don't think Jacob died in Egypt? What translation do you have that states Jacob is "dying" present tense in Egypt? No translation renders ἐτελεύτησεν has a present tense. Just as Acts 7:15 is past tense, so is Matthew. You presented a proof text that goes against your argument.


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In Matthew 9:18 it is "even now dead" versus "even now dies." In Acts of the Apostles 7:15 is "Jacob
went down into Egypt, and died" versus "Jacob went down into Egypt, and dies."
The same Greek verb and tense translated two different ways "dead" and "died" or in one way "dies" and "dies."

The point being I think that verb can be translated the same being the same tense in both Matthew 9:18 and Acts of the Apostles 7:15.
And also the meaning used by Matthew 9:18, Mark 5:24 and Luke 8:42 can be translated to be similar even thought the three writers use of different Greek words to translate the common phrase used by Jairus.

 

[McCree79]

Jesus explicitly said she was not dead. As pointed out all three accounts say this.

Then who did Jesus raise from the dead before chapter 11? You have created a major problem in your attempt to translate an aorist as a present tense verb. You have dodged the question twice.

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[McCree79]

Jesus explicitly said she was not dead. As pointed out all three accounts say this.

From Jesus' point a view she was not dead. From man's view she was. That is why he can say Lazarus is asleep and dead at the same time. [From Jesus' view he was asleep, but from the dicsiples view he was dead] The girl died physically, but she was not dead, because Jesus controls life and death. He was going to bring her back. This is why Jesus can say in John 6 and 11 that those in Him never die....yet they do die physically. Jesus will raise them from the dead.

No one is ever truly dead when Christ is involved.



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[37818]

Then who did Jesus raise from the dead before chapter 11? You have created a major problem in your attempt to translate an aorist as a present tense verb. You have dodged the question twice.

You are supposing a non-existent problem. You think because the pasage in Matthew 11:5, says ". . . the dead{plural} are raised up . . ." are not identified there is a truth problem.

 

[37818]

From Jesus' point a view she was not dead. From man's view she was. That is why he can say Lazarus is asleep and dead at the same time. [From Jesus' view he was asleep, but from the dicsiples view he was dead] The girl died physically, but she was not dead, because Jesus controls life and death. He was going to bring her back. This is why Jesus can say in John 6 and 11 that those in Him never die....yet they do die physically. Jesus will raise them from the dead.

No one is ever truly dead when Christ is involved.



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Jesus was tell the others she was not dead. If perchance He had brought the girl from the dead it would be prior to Him telling them that she is not dead.

 

[John of Japan]

This is an opinion of how in English this word should be translated.
The occurrence in Matthew 9:18 compared to Mark 5:22 and Luke 8:41 are the reasons for this opinion. Note Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46 and Mark 9:48.

Matthew 2:19, ". . . But when Herod dies, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, . . ."

Matthew 9:18, ". . . While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dies: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. . . ."
The two parallel passages do not use this word.
Mark 5:22-23, ". . . And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet, And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live. . . ."
Luke 8:41-42, ". . . And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house: For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him. . . ."

Matthew 15:4, ". . . For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. . . ."
Mark 7:10, ". . . For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: . . ."

Matthew 22:25, ". . . Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, dies, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: . . ."

Mark 9:44, ". . . Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."

Mark 9:46, ". . . Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."

Mark 9:48, ". . . Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."

Luke 7:2, ". . . And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. . . ."

Acts of the Apostles 2:29, ". . . Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he both dies and was buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. . . ."

Acts of the Apostles 7:15, ". . . So Jacob went down into Egypt, and dies, he, and our fathers, . . ."

Hebrews 11:22, ". . . By faith Joseph, when he dies, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. . . ."

Your rendering seems awkward . I suggest "ended his life" or something similar, since the cognate noun is τέλος, "end." I don't normally use Thayer's, but he has "come to an end" for τελευτάω (p. 619). BAGD has for τελευτή, another noun cognate, "end, a euphemism for death," (p. 810).

If you want a modern euphemism for death, folks nowadays say "passed," so that would be a possibility.

 

[37818]

@John of Japan,
What drove this were a number of things.
The Matthew translation to the Greek to English, "even now dead." Where Mark's Greek to English, "at the point of death." And Luke 8:42, Greek to English, "lay a dying." In Acts 7:15, regarding Jacob, "died" being the very word Matthew used. Gill thinks the adverb for "even now" better rendered "near." "Near dead."

 

[John of Japan]

In Matthew 9:18 it is "even now dead" versus "even now dies." In Acts of the Apostles 7:15 is "Jacob
went down into Egypt, and died" versus "Jacob went down into Egypt, and dies."
The same Greek verb and tense translated two different ways "dead" and "died" or in one way "dies" and "dies."

Good points. But I still see "dies" as awkward English. I am not a purist, and don't object to awkward English if it is the only way to be faithful to the text. However, I think this is different.

We have different Greek in Matthew 9:18 (ἄρτι ἐτελεύτησεν, "now has ended") and Mark 5:22 (ἐσχάτως ἔχει, literally, "has an end"). I suggest that they both refer to actual death, but are two similar euphemisms, maybe coming from the same Aramaic.

As for Acts 7:15, I'm not sure why you think simply "died" is not okay. "Went" and "died" are both aorist, but "dies" is a present tense, so the phrase then sounds awkward.

 

[37818]

. . . but "dies" is a present tense . . . .

I have seen news paper obituaries where "dies" is used in the past tense. Truthfully "dies" as I proposed using it and as used in the seen obituaries is not found standard dictionaries. Maybe Gill's "near" for the adverb is the better solution. I do think the common translation topically being used in Matthew 9:18 is an error.

 

[37818]

I have seen news paper obituaries where "dies" is used in the past tense.

https://www.google.com/search?clien...obituaries+newspapers+"dies"&aqs=heirloom-srp..