τελευταω occurs 12 times.

[37818]

This is an opinion of how in English this word should be translated.
The occurrence in Matthew 9:18 compared to Mark 5:22 and Luke 8:41 are the reasons for this opinion. Note Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46 and Mark 9:48.

Matthew 2:19, ". . . But when Herod dies, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, . . ."

Matthew 9:18, ". . . While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dies: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. . . ."
The two parallel passages do not use this word.
Mark 5:22-23, ". . . And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet, And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live. . . ."
Luke 8:41-42, ". . . And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house: For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him. . . ."

Matthew 15:4, ". . . For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. . . ."
Mark 7:10, ". . . For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: . . ."

Matthew 22:25, ". . . Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, dies, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: . . ."

Mark 9:44, ". . . Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."

Mark 9:46, ". . . Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."

Mark 9:48, ". . . Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."

Luke 7:2, ". . . And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. . . ."

Acts of the Apostles 2:29, ". . . Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he both dies and was buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. . . ."

Acts of the Apostles 7:15, ". . . So Jacob went down into Egypt, and dies, he, and our fathers, . . ."

Hebrews 11:22, ". . . By faith Joseph, when he dies, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. . . ."

 

[SavedByGrace]

so what is your problem here? you make no sense! The verb τελευτάω has meant "to die" for centuries, even before the Christian era.

 

[McCree79]

This is an opinion of how in English this word should be translated.
The occurrence in Matthew 9:18 compared to Mark 5:22 and Luke 8:41 are the reasons for this opinion. Note Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46 and Mark 9:48.

Matthew 2:19, ". . . But when Herod dies, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, . . ."

Matthew 9:18, ". . . While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dies: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. . . ."
The two parallel passages do not use this word.
Mark 5:22-23, ". . . And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet, And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live. . . ."
Luke 8:41-42, ". . . And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house: For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him. . . ."

Matthew 15:4, ". . . For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. . . ."
Mark 7:10, ". . . For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: . . ."

Matthew 22:25, ". . . Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, dies, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: . . ."

Mark 9:44, ". . . Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."

Mark 9:46, ". . . Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."

Mark 9:48, ". . . Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."

Luke 7:2, ". . . And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. . . ."

Acts of the Apostles 2:29, ". . . Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he both dies and was buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. . . ."

Acts of the Apostles 7:15, ". . . So Jacob went down into Egypt, and dies, he, and our fathers, . . ."

Hebrews 11:22, ". . . By faith Joseph, when he dies, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. . . ."

I am a little confused here. Why are you letting passages that do not contain τελευτάω dictate how you translate τελευτάω? Also, why would Mark 5:22 and Luke 8:41 allow you to translate the aorist tense as a present tense in other passages?

I may not understand what you are trying to say here.

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[SavedByGrace]

I am a little confused here. Why are you letting passages that do not contain τελευτάω dictate how you translate τελευτάω? Also, why would Mark 5:22 and Luke 8:41 allow you to translate the aorist tense as a present tense in other passages?

I may not understand what you are trying to say here.

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because he does not understand Greek!

 

[37818]

I am a little confused here. Why are you letting passages that do not contain τελευτάω dictate how you translate τελευτάω?

Matthew 9:18 does have the word τελευτάω in the grammatical form of ετελευτησεν. And that usage occurs one other place Acts of the Apostles 7:15. Would it make sense for it to read, ". . . So Jacob went down into Egypt, and dead, he, and our fathers, . . ." The very same grammar as used in Matthew 9:18. If you think Matthew should alone contradict the latter writers Mark and Luke. Who would have certainly known what Matthew had written. Mark largely following Matthew's account. Matthew is the earler gospel referenced by James and the Apostle Paul [Matthew 5:33-37, James 5:12 and 2 Corinthians 1:17-18.]

 

[37818]

Some individuals have a very low view of inspiration and the inerrance of God's word. That the word of God is self authenticating.

 

[McCree79]

Some individuals have a very low view of inspiration and the inerrance of God's word. That the word of God is self authenticating.

So you are saying Matthew mistakenly uses the aorist tense? Or that we should always translate the aorist as a present? Matthew uses the present tense at times. Surely if he wanted to use the present tense he would have. Matthew 9:18 does indeed use the word τελευτάω in the aorist form. Not the present tense. Mark and Luke do not use this word in their accounts.

This is not an example of an error on Matthew's part. Mark gives a much fuller picture of the event. Matthew telescopes the event. The child did indeed die. Matthew just condensed the story. That much is evident by any honest reading of Matthew. Their is no issue here. We cannot change the tense of verbs to give us a reading we want.

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[37818]

So you are saying Matthew mistakenly uses the aorist tense?

Not at all. I believe the evidence that it should be rendered "dies." The parallel passages indicate the little girl was not yet dead. You perfer that either Matthew or Mark and Luke were in error? The little girl was either dead or not yet died but dying? Or Matthew, Mark and Luke are in agreement?

 

[McCree79]

Not at all. I believe the evidence that it should be rendered "dies." The parallel passages indicate the little girl was not yet dead. You perfer that either Matthew or Mark and Luke were in error? The little girl was either dead or not yet died but dying? Or Matthew, Mark and Luke are in agreement?

I made it clear neither was in error. Matthew used the aorist to convey the girl died. Which is true. Matthew used a well know practice of telescoping. To change it to "dying" / present tense would take away the fact that Jesus raised her from the dead. That would cause an error. They only what to prevent the error is to let the Greek of Matthew to be translated as he has written it. If he wanted the present tense, he would have used it like he did elsewhere.

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[McCree79]

And that usage occurs one other place Acts of the Apostles 7:15. Would it make sense for it to read, ". . . So Jacob went down into Egypt, and dead, he, and our fathers, . . ." The very same grammar as used in Matthew 9:18.

You don't think Jacob died in Egypt? What translation do you have that states Jacob is "dying" present tense in Egypt? No translation renders ἐτελεύτησεν has a present tense. Just as Acts 7:15 is past tense, so is Matthew. You presented a proof text that goes against your argument.


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[37818]

I made it clear neither was in error. Matthew used the aorist to convey the girl died. Which is true. Matthew used a well know practice of telescoping. To change it to "dying" / present tense would take away the fact that Jesus raised her from the dead. That would cause an error. They only what to prevent the error is to let the Greek of Matthew to be translated as he has written it. If he wanted the present tense, he would have used it like he did elsewhere.

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There are three parts to the event of the little girl account.
Matthew only presents the first and the third parts.
Matthew 9:18-19 ------------------ Matthew 9:23-26.
Mark 5:22-24 Mark 5:35-36 Mark 5:37-43.
Luke 8:41-42 Luke 8:49-50 Luke 8:51-56.

In all three accounts Jesus says she is not dead but asleep. Matthew 9:24, Mark 5:39 and Luke 8:52.

I think you made clear your understanding of Matthew's rendering of the event. It sets what is said in Matthew 9:18 against how it is said in Mark 5:24 and Luke 8:42.

 

[37818]

You don't think Jacob died in Egypt?

You are being absurd.

 

[McCree79]

There are three parts to the event of the little girl account.
Matthew only presents the first and the third parts.
Matthew 9:18-19 ------------------ Matthew 9:23-26.
Mark 5:22-24 Mark 5:35-36 Mark 5:37-43.
Luke 8:41-42 Luke 8:49-50 Luke 8:51-56.

In all three accounts Jesus says she is not dead but asleep. Matthew 9:24, Mark 5:39 and Luke 8:52.

I think you made clear your understanding of Matthew's rendering of the event. It sets what is said in Matthew 9:18 against how it is said in Mark 5:24 and Luke 8:42.

You don't think she was really dead?

Was Lazuraus dead?


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[McCree79]

You are being absurd.

Then what is the issue with Acts? The verb is past tense...as in he was dead. What is your objection. In what way does it prove that Matthew should be transacted as a present tense dying?

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[37818]

You don't think she was really dead?

Post #1 DId Jesus fib?

Was Lazuraus dead?

John 11:14, "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."

 

[37818]

Then what is the issue with Acts? The verb is past tense...as in he was dead. What is your objection. In what way does it prove that Matthew should be transacted as a present tense dying?

Both Matthew 9:18 and Acts of the Apostles 7:15 use the very same Greek word and grammar. Both make sense translated as "dies."

 

[McCree79]

Post #1 DId Jesus fib?

John 11:14, "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."

And right before that he said.

“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.”

Sleep was an expression for dead. They did not understand that "asleep" can mean dead. So Jesus cleared it up for them. This usage is seen frequently elsewhere in Scripture. Such 1 Thess. 4:14, Acts 13:36, 1 Cor. 15:6,8...and so on.

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[McCree79]

Both Matthew 9:18 and Acts of the Apostles 7:15 use the very same Greek word and grammar. Both make sense translated as "dies."

It makes zero sense, it is not a present tense verb. Jacob and the father "died" past tense. Why would anyone use a present tense verb? Matthew didn't.

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[37818]

And right before that he said.

“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.”

Sleep was an expression for dead. They did not understand that "asleep" can mean dead. So Jesus cleared it up for them. This usage is seen frequently elsewhere in Scripture. Such 1 Thess. 4:14, Acts 13:36, 1 Cor. 15:6,8...and so on.

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But in Matthew 9:24 said she was "not dead." As in Mark 5:39 and Luke 8:52. Jesus explicitly said she was not dead.

 

[McCree79]

But in Matthew 9:24 said she was "not dead." As in Mark 5:39 and Luke 8:52. Jesus explicitly said she was not dead.

Who did Jesus raise from the dead before Matthew 11? He told the Baptist he had done such.

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