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“Real” Ability of all God’s Creatures to Respond to the Influence of Him/Seek Truth
- Thread starter Benjamin
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In other words he is omniscient and knows before hand what decisions we will make.We are in agreement that in things involving 'non spiritual" matters, the Lord has granted unto us limited" free will" we make real decisions that he already foresaw and forknew...
Most people have a hard time with the meaning of the word "dead." It does not have any connotation of "corpse," lifelessness, etc. It simply means "separated." The last verse of James 2 points that out clearly. So does Genesis 3. Adam died. Adam continued to talk with God though he was dead. How is that possible? He wasn't a corpse, not even a spiritual corpse. He was simply separated from God spiritually. That is death; separation from God. And until God reconciled him to Himself through a blood sacrifice (Gen.3:21) there was no spiritual life, though Adam being dead could still communicate with God. He was still able to come to God and put his faith in God if he so desired.I am NOT a "hard determint" regarding salvation, But do believe that being reckoned 'dead" in ASdam, that we are not able to exercise faith ina positive sense being depraived, we are bound to make a free decision, but being a sinner will always be in the negative, to reject Christ...
God doesn't enable an unregenerate person to put his faith in God any more than he enables an unregenerate person to make a cup of coffee. It is not taught in Scripture.Once God enables us to be able once again to freely choose yes or no both. we than can do as you believe, just have a step before we can get to that point!
I have highlighted where we differ, you believe you are saved if YOU remain faithful to Jesus. I believe I am saved because Jesus is faithful to me. These are exact opposites. You believe someone who is not faithful to the end was not "really" elect.
Truth is, you have no idea if you will be faithful to the end and therefore cannot have any true assurance. Your salvation is man-centered, dependent upon YOUR faithfulness. Good luck with that.
I on the other hand believe Jesus's promise that he will in no wise cast out those who come to him (Jn 6:37). I am not depending on my own faithfulness to Jesus (Thank God for that), I am depending on Jesus's faithfulness to me.
I would ask you, how faithful do you have to be to be one of the elect?
So you see, we do not believe the same thing whatsoever.
Misreading/understanding my position here on this...
believe that the Bible assures us ALl that are saved by/of God will indded endure to the very end and prove that their election was sure BY the power of God, in person of HS sealed within us... that is his work, to empower and enable us to stay faithful to Jesus...
So the elected saints will endure, confirm, by God grace at work in and through us...
basis of my salvation rests in God/the cross/jesus/ HS...
NOT my faith really, its in the ONE that saved me, and he will be able to preserve/keep me until very end!
So BOTH at play here...
God is the One who will uphold me and makes sure that I will pservere, and by me doing that conforms my election was sure!
Those elected by God WILL go 'all the way" because of Him holding us....
convicted1
Guest
You are unable to come because you are unwilling to come. Unable means you don't have the ability and something is keeping your from that. In this case, it's your will that's keeping you. So in that sense, you are unable.
Uh, Brother, this doesn't add up. "Unable" means you can't do it. "Unwilling" means you don't want to do it. I am unwilling to drink alcohol, but that doesn't mean I am unable to do so. I could "pop a top", but I have no desire to do so, therefore I am unwilling, not unable. I was able to come to Christ years before I did, because He drew me for years. I was just unwilling to come, because I wanted to live my life my way. That doesn't mean I was unable to be saved, but rather, unwilling.
Misreading/understanding my position here on this...
believe that the Bible assures us ALl that are saved by/of God will indded endure to the very end and prove that their election was sure BY the power of God, in person of HS sealed within us... that is his work, to empower and enable us to stay faithful to Jesus...
So the elected saints will endure, confirm, by God grace at work in and through us...
basis of my salvation rests in God/the cross/jesus/ HS...
NOT my faith really, its in the ONE that saved me, and he will be able to preserve/keep me until very end!
So BOTH at play here...
God is the One who will uphold me and makes sure that I will pservere, and by me doing that conforms my election was sure!
Those elected by God WILL go 'all the way" because of Him holding us....
The cat is already out of the bag JF, I highlighted those parts of your post where you said you must be faithful.
That is the great weakness of Calvinism, it encourages doubt, not faith. You cannot truly know if you are elect unless you persevere, and you cannot know that you persevered until your life is over. There would also be the question of what constitutes faithfulness, how faithful do you have to be? How much sin is too much sin?
So, it really comes down to works salvation, your doctrine is not one bit different than what Arminians believe, they also believe they must be faithful to the end.
I am neither Cal nor Arm, I am depending on Jesus alone to save me. I know that I am not always faithful to him, but I KNOW he will always be faithful to me.
The cat is already out of the bag JF, I highlighted those parts of your post where you said you must be faithful.
That is the great weakness of Calvinism, it encourages doubt, not faith. You cannot truly know if you are elect unless you persevere, and you cannot know that you persevered until your life is over. There would also be the question of what constitutes faithfulness, how faithful do you have to be? How much sin is too much sin?
So, it really comes down to works salvation, your doctrine is not one bit different than what Arminians believe, they also believe they must be faithful to the end.
I am neither Cal nor Arm, I am depending on Jesus alone to save me. I know that I am not always faithful to him, but I KNOW he will always be faithful to me.
Again, i am a Aryraldian, neither Cal/Arm...
But again...
God elected and chose me in jesus to be saved, He sent the Grace needed to allow me the real freedom I did not have in my sinful Flesh to accept jesus Christ...
As He elected and chose me to Eternal life, he is faithful to complete that which he has already started, that I am sealed with Spirit of promise until that day...
Since He saved me, sealed me, will bring me "home" at the end...
What do ANY works have to do with God being able to save us?
Misreading/understanding my position here on this...
believe that the Bible assures us ALl that are saved by/of God will indded endure to the very end and prove that their election was sure BY the power of God, in person of HS sealed within us... that is his work, to empower and enable us to stay faithful to Jesus...
So the elected saints will endure, confirm, by God grace at work in and through us...
basis of my salvation rests in God/the cross/jesus/ HS...
NOT my faith really, its in the ONE that saved me, and he will be able to preserve/keep me until very end!
So BOTH at play here...
God is the One who will uphold me and makes sure that I will pservere, and by me doing that conforms my election was sure!
Those elected by God WILL go 'all the way" because of Him holding us....
The cat is already out of the bag JF, I highlighted those parts of your post where you said you must be faithful.
That is the great weakness of Calvinism, it encourages doubt, not faith. You cannot truly know if you are elect unless you persevere, and you cannot know that you persevered until your life is over. There would also be the question of what constitutes faithfulness, how faithful do you have to be? How much sin is too much sin?
So, it really comes down to works salvation, your doctrine is not one bit different than what Arminians believe, they also believe they must be faithful to the end.
I am neither Cal nor Arm, I am depending on Jesus alone to save me. I know that I am not always faithful to him, but I KNOW he will always be faithful to me.
The cat is already out of the bag JF, I highlighted those parts of your post where you said you must be faithful.
That is the great weakness of Calvinism, it encourages doubt, not faith. You cannot truly know if you are elect unless you persevere, and you cannot know that you persevered until your life is over. There would also be the question of what constitutes faithfulness, how faithful do you have to be? How much sin is too much sin?
So, it really comes down to works salvation, your doctrine is not one bit different than what Arminians believe, they also believe they must be faithful to the end.
I am neither Cal nor Arm, I am depending on Jesus alone to save me. I know that I am not always faithful to him, but I KNOW he will always be faithful to me.
Please reread...
Quite evident that salvation is of the Lord from start to finish!
There simply is no such thing as perseverance on God's part or, our's to keep us. We are kept by God because there is nothing that can take us out of His hand. He will not loose any of us because there is nothing more powerful that God.God is the One who will uphold me and makes sure that I will pservere, and by me doing that conforms my election was sure!
Those elected by God WILL go 'all the way" because of Him holding us....
MB
quantumfaith
Active Member
Please reread...
Quite evident that salvation is of the Lord from start to finish!
JF,
No one, as far as I can tell say that "salvation is not of God". That is simply not true of those of us who are convinced that we Must have faith and belief. It is quite evident that EVERYTHING is "of the Lord God". From the very first words, "God created the heavens and the earth".
There simply is no such thing as perseverance on God's part or, our's to keep us. We are kept by God because there is nothing that can take us out of His hand. He will not loose any of us because there is nothing more powerful that God.
MB
Glad that you agree with me!
quantumfaith
Active Member
Glad that you agree with me!
We always have, as I suspect is the case with most here. It is the nuanced details that we get "bogged down" with.
JF,
No one, as far as I can tell say that "salvation is not of God". That is simply not true of those of us who are convinced that we Must have faith and belief. It is quite evident that EVERYTHING is "of the Lord God". From the very first words, "God created the heavens and the earth".
NOT saying that you or anyone else does not believe in this, just was adressing post on why cals seem to be doubt of security, religion of works etc...
Since we DO believe that "its all" God from start to finish, no need for 'works" to keep us
Show.confirm that our election is complete and real/sure, but NOT needed to secure security!
quantumfaith
Active Member
NOT saying that you or anyone else does not believe in this, just was adressing post on why cals seem to be doubt of security, religion of works etc...
Since we DO believe that "its all" God from start to finish, no need for 'works" to keep us
Show.confirm that our election is complete and real/sure, but NOT needed to secure security!
I don't believe ANYONE in this discussion believes in the ability of man to "work" his way into God's presence. Salvation is GRACE....Amazing Grace pure and simple. No one, no matter which side of the "theological ailse" they are skewed toward believes salvation is anything but GRACE.
Glad that you agree with me!
He was not agreeing with you, he was refuting your view. He said neither we nor God "perseveres". It is your doctrine called TULIP, the letter P standing for "Perseverance of the Saints".
Your doctrine might be fine except for one GIGANTIC problem, you have no idea if you are "really" elect as I highlighted in your earlier post. The only way you can have assurance is to attempt to prove it to yourself by your own works. You are no different than those who asked, "have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
I am not questioning your salvation or trying to cause you doubt, but this is what happens when your doctrine is wrong, you paint yourself into a corner.
If you want to know you are saved, then come to Jesus in your heart, cast yourself on him. This is what believeing is, it is relying or depending on Jesus alone to save you. He has promised he will not in any way cast out any person who comes to him. Now you can KNOW you are saved, because Jesus cannot lie.
Of course, if someone has convinced you that you do not have the ability to come to and believe on Jesus, that is a serious problem.
Forget what men say, listen to Jesus and come to him, and you will KNOW you are saved.
He was not agreeing with you, he was refuting your view. He said neither we nor God "perseveres". It is your doctrine called TULIP, the letter P standing for "Perseverance of the Saints".
Your doctrine might be fine except for one GIGANTIC problem, you have no idea if you are "really" elect as I highlighted in your earlier post. The only way you can have assurance is to attempt to prove it to yourself by your own works. You are no different than those who asked, "have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
I am not questioning your salvation or trying to cause you doubt, but this is what happens when your doctrine is wrong, you paint yourself into a corner.
If you want to know you are saved, then come to Jesus in your heart, cast yourself on him. This is what believeing is, it is relying or depending on Jesus alone to save you. He has promised he will not in any way cast out any person who comes to him. Now you can KNOW you are saved, because Jesus cannot lie.
Of course, if someone has convinced you that you do not have the ability to come to and believe on Jesus, that is a serious problem.
Forget what men say, listen to Jesus and come to him, and you will KNOW you are saved.
i KNOW that I am saved due to the internal witness of the Holy spirit, the external witness of assurance in the Bible, and that my nature has been changed to wanting to walk with God...
have to remember "High" cals talk about preserving salvation, that the saints must endure and that proves their election is true
Moderates like myself see it as the elected/saints WILL endure tot he end because of God upholding us, empowering us by HS, our new nature in Christ will not fall away due to Christ now in us, hope of glory!
In other words he is omniscient and knows before hand what decisions we will make.
Most people have a hard time with the meaning of the word "dead." It does not have any connotation of "corpse," lifelessness, etc. It simply means "separated." The last verse of James 2 points that out clearly. So does Genesis 3. Adam died. Adam continued to talk with God though he was dead. How is that possible? He wasn't a corpse, not even a spiritual corpse. He was simply separated from God spiritually. That is death; separation from God. And until God reconciled him to Himself through a blood sacrifice (Gen.3:21) there was no spiritual life, though Adam being dead could still communicate with God. He was still able to come to God and put his faith in God if he so desired.
God doesn't enable an unregenerate person to put his faith in God any more than he enables an unregenerate person to make a cup of coffee. It is not taught in Scripture.
Again though...
Spiritually dead in our natures of sinners refers to us NOT be able to freely respond to the Gospel , cna hear/understand "intellectual" but will NOT have means to decide 'yes" to Chrsit, as being sinners will respond in like fashion "no"
God grace quickens us to be able to freely decide for jesus at moment received Gospel...
God grace enables Gospel heard faith placed in ALL occur at essentially same period of time!
I heard this from a rabid anti-Calvinist so I am sure that it is wrong in some ways. But here is the way he defined the doctrine in question compared to what non-Cals believe.He was not agreeing with you, he was refuting your view. He said neither we nor God "perseveres". It is your doctrine called TULIP, the letter P standing for "Perseverance of the Saints".
We believe in OSAS, which the Calvinists (apparently) do not believe.
They believe TULIP, perseverance of the saints.
The difference: Suppose a Christian lives a Godly life for 40 years and then in the last year he slips into a carnal lifestyle. The Calvinist says he was never saved in the first place. He believes there is no such thing as a "carnal Christian," and therefore is forced to deny that he was ever a Christian. This is more typical of those who believe in Lordship salvation, but it fits with all Calvinists and their doctrine of Perseverance. He has not persevered to the end. He ended up in carnality and therefore was not saved. In my thinking it has changed salvation by faith into salvation by works.
The non-cal believes in OSAS (eternal security), that once he is saved he is secure in God's hand and can never lose his salvation, even if he becomes as Lot became, backslidden in this terrible and wicked world. The Corinthian believers were carnal believers (1Cor.3:1-3). There are many examples of carnal Christians in the Bible. If they sin they will lose their reward not their salvation. The doctrine is not perseverance, but eternal security or OSAS.
How accurate is that assessment?
That is an opinion not backed up in the Bible. I notice you don't use Scripture. Where does faith come from? For the unsaved it doesn't come from God; it comes from hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Go back into the gospels and read of all the ones that came to Jesus to be healed and many believed. What was the response of Jesus almost every time? Thy hath made thee whole. Jesus didn't give them the faith. It was theirs to begin with.Again though...
Spiritually dead in our natures of sinners refers to us NOT be able to freely respond to the Gospel , cna hear/understand "intellectual" but will NOT have means to decide 'yes" to Chrsit, as being sinners will respond in like fashion "no"
God grace quickens us to be able to freely decide for jesus at moment received Gospel...
God grace enables Gospel heard faith placed in ALL occur at essentially same period of time!
I heard this from a rabid anti-Calvinist so I am sure that it is wrong in some ways. But here is the way he defined the doctrine in question compared to what non-Cals believe.
We believe in OSAS, which the Calvinists (apparently) do not believe.
They believe TULIP, perseverance of the saints.
The difference: Suppose a Christian lives a Godly life for 40 years and then in the last year he slips into a carnal lifestyle. The Calvinist says he was never saved in the first place. He believes there is no such thing as a "carnal Christian," and therefore is forced to deny that he was ever a Christian. This is more typical of those who believe in Lordship salvation, but it fits with all Calvinists and their doctrine of Perseverance. He has not persevered to the end. He ended up in carnality and therefore was not saved. In my thinking it has changed salvation by faith into salvation by works.
The non-cal believes in OSAS (eternal security), that once he is saved he is secure in God's hand and can never lose his salvation, even if he becomes as Lot became, backslidden in this terrible and wicked world. The Corinthian believers were carnal believers (1Cor.3:1-3). There are many examples of carnal Christians in the Bible. If they sin they will lose their reward not their salvation. The doctrine is not perseverance, but eternal security or OSAS.
How accurate is that assessment?
Differing shades of this within the Christian Camp!
Some cals hold to the 'truth" that one 'proves" they are elected/saved BY staying faithful to the very end, that indeed saint not truely saved IF fall away, fail to perserving to the very end.... No room for "carnal" christian, either saved or not!
Some. like my self, hold that God is the One keeping us saved and secured, that we can choose to NOT obey God, loss of works/rewards NOT eternal life though, room for a carnal living Christian
Classic Arms teach that God is able to, can keep us secure, BUT we still have the free will by god to ultimatly turn away and reject Christ and be lost in end
Amended view in Arms even though still casn choose to Aposty and 'fall away" from grace, God still keeps us saved, be like the man saved as by/through the Fire!
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