“Real” Ability of all God’s Creatures to Respond to the Influence of Him/Seek Truth

[JesusFan]

Then it is salvation by works. The outsider (you) determines if the believer has persevered enough to make it to heaven. You determine if he is carnal enough to be considered carnal. After all it is subjective. Is it one sin, two sins? A day of sins? A week? a month? When is a person termed "carnal?" With such arbitrariness you have become very legalistic in your faith. (you as in being the one who takes this position)

This comes close to being a mixture of grace and works, yes...

If there is free will here, then there must be free will to choose to come to Christ in the first place. Let's be consistent. "We can choose not to obey God." That is free will is it not?

have to remember though that we believe that before saved, all of us are fioound to be "in Adam" with sinful natures, and as such do NOT have ability to freely decide to accept jesus, free to reject Him
Part of the condition of being in Sin, and depravided, and inability to come to God, as our natures refuse to do that in/by themselves!

We don't believe that.

You DO believe that God has granted to you the FINAL say in process, can refuse to ;walk away" from your faith/salvation and become lost again...

You mean something like Clark Pinnock?

More like a Charles Stanley!

 

[JesusFan]

You are saying the same thing as the High Cals. You just said you will ENDURE.

You just aren't getting it, you cannot endure yourself into heaven. You must cast yourself on Jesus and depend upon him only to get you into heaven. Quit working and give yourself over to him.

Quit trying to fly the plane, give Jesus the controls and let him take over.

That was simply an analogy, but what you must do. Let go of the controls and let him fly the plane. That is a ceasing of working, a ceasing of enduring, and a complete TRUSTING of him to land the plane safely.

Think about this logically for a moment...

Since I do believe that my salvation is due to God choosing me to be one of the elected in Christ unto eternal life, why would I be relying on myself or my works to keep me, as God started and will finish His good work in me?

 

[jbh28]

Can you show with scripture that you are in fact elected?
MB

The fact that I'm a believer.
"believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"

 

[jbh28]

and as it continues, ONLY the elect will believe? If only the commutativeness could be proven.

The non-elect will never want to believe. Election is not about keeping people out of heaven. No one will want to come and be turned away because of not being elect.

 

[DHK]

dhk


it is not accurate because the error is mixed into the truth

backslidders are apostates.....false professors do not lose rewards, but they lose their soul.
The man who perseveres does so because God works in Him.

So Lot, described as backslidden, yet at the same time justified by God, was apostate according to you. But God declared him righteous and called him "just Lot." Who should I believe? You or God? I go with God!

 

[quantumfaith]

The non-elect will never want to believe. Election is not about keeping people out of heaven. No one will want to come and be turned away because of not being elect.

JBH,

I mean NO disrespect. There are many things about the DoG that I find personally troublesome. Not the least of which is how "tightly" everything is sewn up in a nice "systematic" package.

Mathematics is much like that in the early formative stages. However, in more advanced and theoretical mathematics, the ideas, axioms, theorems are not so "tight" and often require creative thinking.

I had a point here, but I forgot what it was....sorry.

 

[J.D.]

JBH,

I mean NO disrespect. There are many things about the DoG that I find personally troublesome. Not the least of which is how "tightly" everything is sewn up in a nice "systematic" package.

Mathematics is much like that in the early formative stages. However, in more advanced and theoretical mathematics, the ideas, axioms, theorems are not so "tight" and often require creative thinking.

I had a point here, but I forgot what it was....sorry.

I would expect God's thought to be air-tight, systematically thinking. Wouldn't you?

By the way, at what level does math become "not so tight"? I've had math up through Calc with differntial equations and have never seen anything like what you describe.

 

[JesusFan]

So Lot, described as backslidden, yet at the same time justified by God, was apostate according to you. But God declared him righteous and called him "just Lot." Who should I believe? You or God? I go with God!

Believe that main reason some hold to that thinking is they see us as being "new creatures" in Christ, no longer having a sinful "old" nature, replaced by a "new nature" and HS, that cannot habitually sin, IF they keep on persisiting in sin, they would say shows 'false" profession of faith, "imposter" christian...

I hold that the Bible teaches we have still same old sin nature, and the Holy Spirit produced new nature in Christ, and that we will always have means to fall back and act on sin desires as long as we are alive "in this Flesh" That is why to rreal Christians admonistions to infillingdaily basis in HS, and NOT do lusts/desires of our Flesh!

 

[sag38]

I agree with Quantum. It's just too tightly wrapped up to be viable in my opinion. Too many times I've had my questions brushed off in one of two ways:
1. You don't understand.
2. You need to study deeper.
I could respond in kind but it just tends to make someone mad.

 

[quantumfaith]

I would expect God's thought to be air-tight, systematically thinking. Wouldn't you?

By the way, at what level does math become "not so tight"? I've had math up through Calc with differntial equations and have never seen anything like what you describe.

Beyond Calculus and DE, Graduate and Post Graduate math, when proving things, it becomes as much as a "creative" venture at times and getting things proved, in many cases.

Consider the proof of Fermats Last Theorem by Andrew Wiles in 1990, a good deal of creativity used. We KNOW, if in fact Fermat did prove it, he could not have proved in the same manner as Dr. Wiles, as Dr. Wiles used mathematics that was not in existance during the days of Fermat.

 

[MB]

Think about this logically for a moment...

Since I do believe that my salvation is due to God choosing me to be one of the elected in Christ unto eternal life, why would I be relying on myself or my works to keep me, as God started and will finish His good work in me?

Yet you still do not know for a fact that God chose you. You just believe He did. Belief isn't proof. The demons believe too yet are not saved. It is possible to believe and not be saved. With out surrender there is no Salvation.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Submission is surrender. The Jews here knew and understood the truth but they just could not submit. Knowing the gospel doesn't save you. God saves you. However He does not force anyone to be saved. This is why submission is so important. A person is not saved with out submission to Christ. We have to give up the rebellion against Him, and do it before Salvation. This is not a work because it is giving up the rebellion.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Are you counted as one of the "elect"? If so, how do you know?

Here's how I know...

John 3:16
For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

WM

14`And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,

15that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

17For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

18he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

here is the passage in ylt

 

[MB]

here is the passage in ylt

This still does not prove your election just because you say it does. Your belief doesn't prove it either. There is more to Salvation than just believing.
MB

 

[JesusFan]

Yet you still do not know for a fact that God chose you. You just believe He did. Belief isn't proof. The demons believe too yet are not saved. It is possible to believe and not be saved. With out surrender there is no Salvation.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Submission is surrender. The Jews here knew and understood the truth but they just could not submit. Knowing the gospel doesn't save you. God saves you. However He does not force anyone to be saved. This is why submission is so important. A person is not saved with out submission to Christ. We have to give up the rebellion against Him, and do it before Salvation. This is not a work because it is giving up the rebellion.
MB

Just saying that the Apostles paul and John both wrote to us. inspired by god, that we CAN KNOW that we have eternal life in Christ, not a belief, a hope, known fact

How?
Interal witness from HS, external witness/assurance of Bible
changed life/new nature/new bent towards God and His word and Christians!

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin,
thanks for your response;

Your post #76 reeks of a false message, possibly in front of the lost, that is nothing more than your sorrowful way to proclaim God’s grace is only “really” offered to the specially pre-selected few; it clearly denies and avoids the truth as presented in the OP which is backed by scripture and your false message attempts to do the work of the Liar who would have men believe they have no “real” choice to accept the “real” promise of grace for ALL God’s creatures! Therefore, I presented the real Gospel message. I have no desire to chase rabbits or spend my time wading through smokescreens of people who can’t follow a logical argument backed by scripture.

looks like a reading problem on your part...where did I say

is nothing more than your sorrowful way to proclaim God’s grace is only “really” offered to the specially pre-selected few

This is where you lack understanding...and go into this hysterical rant.

Really...doing the work of a liar?? You invent this whole scenerio in your mind because you are unable to process the biblical data...it's ok..I have seen this before.

Where did I say men have no real chance?? only in your mind!:thumbs:

As far as we can tell everyone we speak to God be one of God's elect....we do not know if they are ...or are not. That does not change Gods eternal purpose however.....God's election stands.....
Benjamin......if you or AIC ,or others can get any non elect to be saved that would be wonderful...have at it.
You seem to have trouble understanding how something can be theologically correct...and yet not be put into the for front of God saveing sinners.

Okay....you go back to your OP...lets take a closer look...maybe I missed something.. I will post that seperate.

 

[Iconoclast]

This still does not prove your election just because you say it does. Your belief doesn't prove it either. There is more to Salvation than just believing.
MB

Correct MB....I was just offering that to wm

see here

2 Peter 1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

All of these things and more must be in the life...with an ongoing belief

 

[MB]

Iconoclast;
Scripture that was written to the Jews doesn't apply to Gentiles. The Jews were elect but not to Salvation they were chosen to be a people of God. Wrong election. Paul is the apostel to the Gentiles Peter only went to one Gentile we know of. What he wrote was addressed to the Jews.
MB

 

[JesusFan]

Iconoclast;
Scripture that was written to the Jews doesn't apply to Gentiles. The Jews were elect but not to Salvation they were chosen to be a people of God. Wrong election. Paul is the apostel to the Gentiles Peter only went to one Gentile we know of. What he wrote was addressed to the Jews.
MB

Think big dispute comes from how one defines "forknowledge" of God

cals/Arms BOTH affirm that we are elected and saved by /due to the Foreknowledge of God...

Cal tend to see it as affirming God directly electing us out to receive eternal life in Christ. that He "knew" us in a personal sense, that He 'caused' us to be able to be saved

Arms tend to see it as being Him seeing us placing faith in Christ, that His election is based on our choice, while cals see it based on His choice!

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin,
You list 25 fine verses speaking of men...needing to seek the Lord.
Some are addressed to believers, some to unbelievers. you say this;

I have no argument against that salvation is all of God, but would like to hear what others believe regarding whether man (all men) truly has/have the (real) ability to freely seek and grow in faith, granted within the condition that God is the influencing agent.


All men are responsible to seek and worship God.
God says they do not seek Him...no..not one....
I notice these verses from psalm 14...quoted in Romans 3 indicate a problem.
and I notice they did not make your list of seeking verses in your OP.

1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

So.....God says He looked down to see if there were any who seek...and there were none.God says there were none...yet he commands us to seek Him? Both are true and yet when you say salvation is all of God..then reject election by God....this is where you start with a wrong premise, the attack others who see the biblical teaching!




I will start by presenting scripture that commands men to seek the Lord, then the argument which brought up the above question,


finally my argument that men must freely respond

Men cannot freely respond...without God....
you say without God's influence as if man just needs a little help,yet you try to word it ironically as you accuse me of doing:thumbs:

to God’s influences to receive


His promise of grace to all on the condition

There is no promise to "all"....on any condition
There are promises to everyone believing
There are promises to Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness
there are promises to those who repent

Those promises are freely given...not based on any condition in man.


Paul says it this way;

15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16To reveal his Son in me,

of “real” faith which necessarily relies on “real” creaturely volition.

Wrong.......we are saved by, or through faith......never because of faith.

The creatures volition is bound by sin...if we relied upon it we would all perish in our sins.

 

[Winman]

Think about this logically for a moment...

Since I do believe that my salvation is due to God choosing me to be one of the elected in Christ unto eternal life, why would I be relying on myself or my works to keep me, as God started and will finish His good work in me?

How do you know God chose you? You seem to assume this as fact. Please explain how you know you are elect.