“The doctrine by which the church stands or falls.”

[ReformedBaptist]

I am curious here.

Are you saying that if one does not hold faith comes from God, then one must be a heritic?

Or

That one who thinks their faith is the object of their justification rather than Christ they are worthy of being called a heritic?

I am saying that if one teaches that their salvation is the work of themselves then they are teaching heresy and are heretics.

 

[russell55]

R55,

There is no contradiction:

Romans 2:13
for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers (poietes, G04163) of the Law will be justified.

Romans 3:20
because by the works (ergon, G02041) of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
​

poietes means "performer", to wit, "one who obeys or fulfills the Law". Such was the Messiah Yeshua.

ergon means "works, business". I understand this to be a reference to legalism and formalistic observance of the Letter of the Law, over against the Spirit of the Law.

With respect, your confusion is an artifact of English translation. If we could all read Greek fluently, no such confusion would arise.

I didn't say I was confused or that it is a contradiction. I said it was a riddle, and that it has a solution.

And BTW, I don't think the riddle is an artifact of English translation. I believe you are making more of the fact that different Greek words are used than is warrented. Obeying the law and doing the works of the law (perfectly) are the same thing, and, if you read my post, you'll know that I believe that Jesus kept the law perfectly on our behalf, and that's how we can be justified apart from our own works.

 

[skypair]

So you believe man cooperates with God in the work of regeneration and that it is not the work of God alone. The problem, beside being wrong, is that your making faith a work, regardless of calling it spiritual or no. Which acutally confuses and confounds the issue all the more!

Will you, sir, OBEY GOD??

At what point will you OBEY GOD??

Will you do so after you are regenerated or before??

How do you know which it was?

How would you know you were regenerated in the first place??

Do you ever "cooperate" with God or is everything you do classified as monergistic??

skypair

 

[skypair]

In addition, scripture never tells us we are justified "on account of" our faith. It says we are justified "by faith" or "through faith" but never "on account of" faith. And when you say we are justified "on account of" our faith, you overlook the scripture that says that lawkeeping is indeed required for justification:

You are a very confused person. We CANNOT be saved aside from faith. Therefore, we are saved "on account of" having it.

The imputation goes both ways: Christ becomes sin for us, and we become the righteousness of God in Christ.{/quote] I understand this. But note: there is one thing we MUST do -- be "born again." How do we do that, russ?

skypair

 

[skypair]

I am saying that if one teaches that their salvation is the work of themselves then they are teaching heresy and are heretics.

Don't be blasphemous! Salvation is the work of God that, nevertheless, needs to be "claimed"/applied by us! Your toying with words (2Tim 2:14, 23)was bound to lead you into apostacy, sir.

skypair

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Don't be blasphemous! Salvation is the work of God that, nevertheless, needs to be "claimed"/applied by us! Your toying with words (2Tim 2:14, 23)was bound to lead you into apostacy, sir.

skypair

If my declaring that salvation is entirely the work of God so much so that a man cannot ascribe a single breath of work to it, such that he cannot say it is God and me, if that declaring be considered blasphemy so be it.

If those who oppose such teaching teach that it is of God and themselves and so assert, I maintain that such teaching is heresy and those who teach it heretics.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Will you, sir, OBEY GOD??

At what point will you OBEY GOD??

Will you do so after you are regenerated or before??

How do you know which it was?

How would you know you were regenerated in the first place??

Do you ever "cooperate" with God or is everything you do classified as monergistic??

skypair

1. I have obeyed the Gospel by the grace of God. Soli Deo Gloria.

2. I work out my salvation with fear and trembling, yet it is God who works in me both to will and do for His good pleasure. Soli Deo Gloria.

3. The grace of God has taught me to conduct my stay here on earth in godliness and holiness.

4. I know I am child of God because I keep His commandments, in that I love my brethren in Christ, I do not love the world (anymore), confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, am addicted to righteousness, believe on Jesus Christ, hope in Jesus Christ, share my goods with my brethren, and by His Spirit that He has given me.

 

[russell55]

You are a very confused person.

Pot...kettle.

We CANNOT be saved aside from faith.

True enough.

Therefore, we are saved "on account of" having it.

This does not necessarily follow from the premise that we cannot be saved aside from faith. "On account of" is legal language used for the legal grounds for something. It refers to the legal reason it is right for something to be done.

Example: I will not receive my wage unless a paycheck is issued. I cannot be paid "aside from" my paycheck. Yet it is not true (at least in precise language) that I am paid "on account of" my paycheck. I am paid "on account of" the work I do. The legal grounds for my wage is my work. My work is what makes it right for me to be paid.

Justification is like that. Faith is necessary as the instrumental means of justification, but faith is not the grounds for it. The legal grounds for justification is not the faith of the person being justified, but the work of Christ on their behalf.

The imputation goes both ways: Christ becomes sin for us, and we become the righteousness of God in Christ.

I understand this. But note: there is one thing we MUST do -- be "born again."

It is necessary that we be born again. But that is not something we must do. Being born again is a work of the Spirit.

How do we do that, russ?

We don't do that. God does it. That's why it's called being being born from the Spirit or being born from above.

 

[skypair]

If my declaring that salvation is entirely the work of God so much so that a man cannot ascribe a single breath of work to it, such that he cannot say it is God and me, if that declaring be considered blasphemy so be it.

If those who oppose such teaching teach that it is of God and themselves and so assert, I maintain that such teaching is heresy and those who teach it heretics.

So you NEVER cooperate with God in salvation? Would you call yourself a "spoiled child" then? Born to do whatever you like?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Justification is like that. Faith is necessary as the instrumental means of justification, but faith is not the grounds for it. The legal grounds for justification is not the faith of the person being justified, but the work of Christ on their behalf.

This ought to be good. So what is the grounds upon which YOU are justified? Since Christ died, why wasn't it applied to ALL if there are no conditions?? If there are no conditions, then how come only believers are saved??

skypair

 

[russell55]

This ought to be good.

And it would be even better if you would cut the snittiness.

So what is the grounds upon which YOU are justified?

Christ merited my justification by his perfect life and obedient death.

Since Christ died, why wasn't it applied to ALL if there are no conditions??

I didn't say there were no conditions.

how come only believers are saved??

Because "faith is necessary as the instrumental means of justification," as I said in the part of my response to you that you quoted. Did you even read the post you quoted?

You are not going to argue that there are other grounds besides Christ's work for our justification, are you? That our justification is earned by our faith? That we are not justified "in Christ alone"?

I need no other argument,
I need no other plea,
It is enough that Jesus died,
And that He died for me.​

 

[JustChristian]

I am saying that if one teaches that their salvation is the work of themselves then they are teaching heresy and are heretics.

Personally, I've never seen anyone on this board claim that salvation is is through their own efforts. To do so is to believe something other than Christianity. Christ died on the cross to save us from our sins.

 

[JustChristian]

And it would be even better if you would cut the snittiness.


Christ merited my justification by his perfect life and obedient death.


I didn't say there were no conditions.

Because "faith is necessary as the instrumental means of justification," as I said in the part of my response to you that you quoted. Did you even read the post you quoted?

You are not going to argue that there are other grounds besides Christ's work for our justification, are you? That our justification is earned by our faith? That we are not justified "in Christ alone"?

I need no other argument,
I need no other plea,
It is enough that Jesus died,
And that He died for me.​

What does this mean?

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Verse 24 in particular seems to refute ReformedBaptist statement directly. I suppose he's accusing James of heresy.

 

[Bismarck]

I didn't say I was confused or that it is a contradiction. I said it was a riddle, and that it has a solution.

And BTW, I don't think the riddle is an artifact of English translation. I believe you are making more of the fact that different Greek words are used than is warrented. Obeying the law and doing the works of the law (perfectly) are the same thing, and, if you read my post, you'll know that I believe that Jesus kept the law perfectly on our behalf, and that's how we can be justified apart from our own works.

Did you hear me say you were "confused"? I said there is no riddle, no contradiction, when looked at from the true Greek perspective.

Greek is the language of Scripture, not English.

All doctrinal claims must be rooted in the Greek, not in English.


In theory, Obeying the Law = doing works of Law perfectly.

HOWEVER....

Romans 3:23 — "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

In short, in practice, no one can perfectly obey the Law, save the Messiah himself.

Thus, in practice, by attempting to do the "works" (ergon) of the Law, no one is made righteous / justified, for they can never, and will never, perfectly uphold the Law.

The Messiah did, however, and was made righteous / justified for so doing.

 

[Bismarck]

What does this mean?

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Verse 24 in particular seems to refute ReformedBaptist statement directly. I suppose he's accusing James of heresy.

Verse 21 refers to Genesis 22, the offering of Isaac.

Verse 22 says that faith is made perfect (completed) by works.

Verse 23 refers to Abraham's justification back in Genesis 15 as being fulfilled by the works 7 chapters later in Genesis 22.


It thus seems to be a multi-step process:

(1) Conceived Justification by Faith
(2) Consummated Justifaction by Works (ergon)​

The goal is that you "bear fruit". Recall the Parable of the Sower (Matt 13:1-23):

Matt 13
19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."​

Justification begins with Faith. That is like the sown seed of the preached Word of God "taking root". But many have "no firm roots" and their initial Faith is choked out by the sinful world.

Only those who are "fertile soil" for the preached Word of God are truly members of the Messianic Reich, and sheep of the shepherd's fold:

John 15
Jesus Is the Vine — Followers Are Branches

1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He cleans it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7 "If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.​

You only "prove to be the Messiah's disciples" (v.8) by "bearing much fruit".


Justification (being made righteous) begins with Belief...
and grows through Good Works (alms, prayer, fasting — Matt 6).

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Personally, I've never seen anyone on this board claim that salvation is is through their own efforts. To do so is to believe something other than Christianity. Christ died on the cross to save us from our sins.

Amen! :thumbs:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

So you NEVER cooperate with God in salvation? Would you call yourself a "spoiled child" then? Born to do whatever you like?

skypair

If spoiled means everything I receive in Christ I don't derserve one iota of it, ABSOLUTELY! :thumbs:

If by being saved by grace alone, in Christ alone, through faith alone, you ask can I continue in sin that grace may abound? GOD FORBID!

RB

 

[russell55]

Did you hear me say you were "confused"?

You mentioned my "confusion" in your post to me.

I said there is no riddle, no contradiction, when looked at from the true Greek perspective.

I didn't say there was a contradiction either. I explained how the two things fit together, even though, at a surface level, they might seem to contradict.

Greek is the language of Scripture, not English.

All doctrinal claims must be rooted in the Greek, not in English.

Yes, of course. However, I think those two Greek terms are used, in this case, to carry the same idea.

In theory, Obeying the Law = doing works of Law perfectly.

This is more than theory. Those who don't do the works of the law don't obey the law.

HOWEVER....

Romans 3:23 — "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

In short, in practice, no one can perfectly obey the Law, save the Messiah himself.

Yep, none of us are lawkeepers, except Jesus.

Thus, in practice, by attempting to do the "works" (ergon) of the Law, no one is made righteous / justified, for they can never, and will never, perfectly uphold the Law.

I agree completely. That's why we need to be justified by an "alien righteousness"--by the perfect lawkeeping of Jesus Christ counted as our own.

The Messiah did, however, and was made righteous / justified for so doing.

One little quibble. The Messiah was not made righteous by keeping the law. He was proven righteous/ justified by keeping the law.

And it is on the basis of his perfect righteousness that those who are identified with him are declared righteous/justified. They are justified apart from their own work, and based on his work.

 

[D28guy]

Skypair,

"So you NEVER cooperate with God in salvation? Would you call yourself a "spoiled child" then? Born to do whatever you like?"

You are doing it again. I called you on it once, yet now you are doing it again.

You are confusing the result of our justification, with our justification. Why do you keep doing this?

The changed life that we experience as a result of being born again has nothing to do with our being born again.(justified).

It is a result of our being born again.

Are you choosing to misunderstand this? I dont know how much plainer I can make it for you.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Allan]

I am saying that if one teaches that their salvation is the work of themselves then they are teaching heresy and are heretics.

You still didn't answer my question in a way that I can understand your meaning. What do you mean "their salvation is the work of themselves". Thus it is the reason I asked you those questions.

Are you saying that if one does not hold faith comes from God, then one must be a heritic?

Or

That one who thinks their faith is the object of their justification rather than Christ they are worthy of being called a heritic?

If you are alluding that : [if our faith is not from God then...heritic ] we may need to talk.

If you are saying - to think our faith is the reason God must save us or that our faith is the object of our justification - heritic. ~ Then I agree!

IOW - our faith is considered equal value and tradable for salvation - heritic
Again I am all in agreement with this one because it makes faith a work.