Of course the post does not make much sense. It is based on experience, not the Word of God. Many Charismatics do that. Instead of using the Word of God as their foundation they use their experience, and then try to fit the word of God into their experience. That is one way false doctrine develops. The Word of God must be our starting place; our foundation. Experiences arise out of the Word of God, not vice-versa.
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“The doctrine of baptisms” (Hebrews 6:1-2)
- Thread starter evangelist-7
- Start date
evangelist-7
New Member
What does people not studying the 14 verses have to do with the experiences of these people?Of course the post does not make much sense. It is based on experience, not the Word of God.
Many Charismatics do that. Instead of using the Word of God as their foundation they use their experience,
and then try to fit the word of God into their experience. That is one way false doctrine develops.
The Word of God must be our starting place; our foundation.
Experiences arise out of the Word of God, not vice-versa.
Oh, yes, their experiences take precedence over studying the word. I get it.
Hey, I cannot believe it ... I agree with the blue.
Dost thou thinkest that I would have been called to evangelize in Bulgaria,
if I did not believe strongly in God's word ... FIRST?
What part of Canada dost thou hail from?
I was born and raised in TO, and went to Mt.A. Or, maybe I need to translate this?
.
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You have made 140 posts on here and I don't have a clue about what you believe. You haven't given a testimony of salvation, so I don't know if you are saved. Thus evangelizing in Bulgaria means nothing. The RCC, Hindus, and Muslims all have evangelists. Since you don't give a testimony of salvation, don't know what it is to be born again, you might be a J.W. I don't know what message you bring (or take to Bulgaria).What does people not studying the 14 verses have to do with the experiences of these people?
Oh, yes, their experiences take precedence over studying the word. I get it.
Hey, I cannot believe it ... I agree with the blue.
Dost thou thinkest that I would have been called to evangelize in Bulgaria,
if I did not believe strongly in God's word ... FIRST?
What part of Canada dost thou hail from?
I was born and raised in TO, and went to Mt.A. Or, maybe I need to translate this?
.
TO is Toronto. As for the rest, I am not sure what you meant.
What does people not studying the 14 verses have to do with the experiences of these people?
Oh, yes, their experiences take precedence over studying the word. I get it.
Hey, I cannot believe it ... I agree with the blue.
Dost thou thinkest that I would have been called to evangelize in Bulgaria,
if I did not believe strongly in God's word ... FIRST?
What part of Canada dost thou hail from?
I was born and raised in TO, and went to Mt.A. Or, maybe I need to translate this?
.
Do yuo hold that we need to get saved first, then we need to have further Holy Sprit experinces/blessings?
That somehow NOT inwill of God IF no signs/tongues/wonders, that we MUST have a futher act of God/experience with holy Spirit after getting saved?
Second act of Grace/blessing?
I'm guessing Moriah would find great pleasure in counting all of the many times ... just to make you look foolish.
This is just another great opportunity for her. Moriah, go for it, girl!
I am not sure why you bring me up here and in the other post. Why did you not comment on my carefully written replies to you?
Did you know that obeying God gives one a sound mind? That is what the Bible says. When one gets into false doctrines, like nowadays prophesying and nowadays speaking in tongues that gives way to unsound minds. What is with all the “you go girl,” and “da” talk? Are you trying to channel Queen Latifah?
evangelist-7
New Member
Referring to the 1st and 3rd baptisms in the OP ...
We love the precious and infallible word of God, don’t we?
We love to study it, believe it, trust it, live by it, don’t we?
These 7 verses show the Holy Spirit is INSIDE believers:
John 14:16-23, Romans 8:11, 1 Cor. 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16
There is absolutely NO mention of the Holy Spirit being UPON, or resting UPON, anyone.
These 7 verses show the Holy Spirit comes UPON believers when receiving the Holy Spirit baptism:
Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 19:5-6
There is absolutely NO mention of the Holy Spirit being INSIDE, or moving INSIDE, anyone.
In the 7 UPON verses above,
the baptism with the Holy Spirit is linked with:
Acts 1:4-8 –----- the promise … (spiritual) power
Acts 2:1-4 –----- speaking in tongues … filled with Holy Spirit
Acts 10:44-48 -- speaking in tongues … received Holy Spirit … the gift
Acts 19:5-6 ----- speaking in tongues … laying on of hands
Acts 11:15-17 -- the gift
Please note that "the promise" and "the gift" refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, not salvation.
Know anyone who has experienced any of these things while being saved?
Excuse the word "experienced", but we humans have experiences, don't we?
'Tis a shame that we have 'em ... and can't just study the word 24-7, but ... c'est la vie!
.
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evangelist-7
New Member
How many times do I need to repeat the same things over and over again?Do yuo hold that we need to get saved first, then we need to have further Holy Sprit experinces/blessings?
That somehow NOT inwill of God IF no signs/tongues/wonders, that we MUST have a futher act of God/experience with holy Spirit after getting saved? Second act of Grace/blessing?
What problem dost thou havest: English, memory, intelligence, understanding, or what? Please clarify.
We NEED to get saved, not only first, but period!
I.E. we do NOT NEED to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit from Yeshua1, who is not you, but Jesus.
Everyone does NOT NEED to receive this special ANOINTING for power ministry.
But, everyone should desire to receive it with all of their hearts.
This is absolutely true, even though the greatest world-famous evangelist, Smith Wigglesworth, once said:
"If you don't have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you are living in a weak and impoverished condition."
I.E. He was talking about peoples' spiritual condition ... which can, and does, have an effect on many other things.
By the way, God was laughing at those who think they're so wise (1 Cor 1:18-31)
when He chose a man with da name Wigglesworth to be His great champion!
Couldn't possibly be anyone here though ... just a heads-up to see if you're payin' attention.
.
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These 7 verses show the Holy Spirit is INSIDE believers:
John 14:16-23, Romans 8:11, 1 Cor. 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16
There is absolutely NO mention of the Holy Spirit being UPON, or resting UPON, anyone.
These 7 verses show the Holy Spirit comes UPON believers when receiving the Holy Spirit baptism:
Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 19:5-6
There is absolutely NO mention of the Holy Spirit being INSIDE, or moving INSIDE, anyone.
In the 7 verses above,
the baptism with the Holy Spiritis linked with[/U]:
Acts 1:4-8 –----- the promise … (spiritual) power
Acts 2:1-4 –----- speaking in tongues … filled with Holy Spirit
Acts 10:44-48 -- speaking in tongues … received Holy Spirit … the gift
Acts 19:5-6 ----- speaking in tongues … laying on of hands
Acts 11:15-17 -- the gift
Please note that "the promise" and "the gift" refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, not salvation.
Know anyone who has experienced any of these things while being saved?
Excuse the word "experienced", but we humans have experiences, don't we?
The giving of the Holy Spirit IS about salvation.
The scriptures that you gave trying to separate being baptized INSIDE or UPON, they are not separate, you have not proven they are separate.
Paul asks some disciples if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed, they had not, Paul puts his hands on them, and they are given the Holy Spirit, as evidence by their speaking in tongues and prophesying. This shows that it is not a separate happening, for they did not yet have the Holy Spirit inside them. So, with your explanation, Jesus gave them at this time the Holy Spirit INSIDE them WHILE the Holy Spirit was outside them and only UPON them. That is nonsensical.
evangelist-7
New Member
Biblicist is intelligent enough to know what I believe about born-again salvation.I don't have a clue about what you believe.
Since you don't give a testimony of salvation, you don't know what it is to be born again
He's read it a dozen times in the 3 threads ...
Baptism into the church (salvation)
This does not refer to a phony salvation, which has always been quite prevalent,
i.e. merely an intellectual belief, or conversion of one’s thinking.
But this refers to being “born again (from above)” with the Holy Spirit entering the person.
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church)
… and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)
The Holy Spirit takes up residence INSIDE the believer … John 14:16-23, Romans 8:11,
1 Corinthians 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16.
DHK, dost this ringest a bell, or have you a very poor memory?
DHK, I'll hazard a guess and say that you're not university-educated, or you'd know what Mt.A. means.
.
evangelist-7
New Member
Sorry, it seemed like the same old stuff again ... but, since you insist, I'll reply now.Why did you not comment on my carefully written replies to you?
.
Referring to the 1st and 3rd baptisms in the OP ...
We love the precious and infallible word of God, don’t we?
We love to study it, believe it, trust it, live by it, don’t we?
These 7 verses show the Holy Spirit is INSIDE believers:
John 14:16-23, Romans 8:11, 1 Cor. 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16
There is absolutely NO mention of the Holy Spirit being UPON, or resting UPON, anyone.
These 7 verses show the Holy Spirit comes UPON believers when receiving the Holy Spirit baptism:
Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 19:5-6
There is absolutely NO mention of the Holy Spirit being INSIDE, or moving INSIDE, anyone.
In the 7 UPON verses above,
the baptism with the Holy Spirit is linked with:
Acts 1:4-8 –----- the promise … (spiritual) power
Acts 2:1-4 –----- speaking in tongues … filled with Holy Spirit
Acts 10:44-48 -- speaking in tongues … received Holy Spirit … the gift
Acts 19:5-6 ----- speaking in tongues … laying on of hands
Acts 11:15-17 -- the gift
Please note that "the promise" and "the gift" refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, not salvation.
Know anyone who has experienced any of these things while being saved?
Excuse the word "experienced", but we humans have experiences, don't we?
'Tis a shame that we have 'em ... and can't just study the word 24-7, but ... c'est la vie!
.
All of those experiences were JSUT for the times recorded in Acts, as no need now, as the holy Spirit comes upon/in ALl who receive Christ, and there are NO additional times for him to come, as we ALL have same measure of Him...
he still bestows Gifts, but NO need for tongues, signs/wonders, as those were used to fulfill OT prophecies and to confirm jesus as messiah!
evangelist-7
New Member
Moriah,
Cannot God do whatever He desires? Have both you and Biblicist put God in a box?
Cannot God put the Holy Spirit INSIDE at the same time He places Him UPON?
There surely is a distinction between Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Foist of oil, Jesus was fully man as well as fully God.
And the gospels say the Holy Spirit was present to perform the miracles,
instead of saying Jesus was present to do them.
I don’t know all of the reasons for tongues in church … ask God about that.
One reason was for the unbelievers (1 Cor) … and we still have those in the pews, right?
Nothing has changed except peoples’ beliefs.
In Canada, my wife and I attended a service at “Calvary Temple”.
We experienced “a tongues and an interpretation” combo 4 times (fairly close together time-wise)
by 4 different combos of people, i.e. 8 people were involved.
Everything was done in perfect order just like Paul commands in 1 Cor.
My wife who has the gifts of discerning of spirits, tongues, and prophecy, said everything was A-OK.
You can quit at the laying of da foundation all you want, I can’t stop you.
But, dearest one, hast thou prayed about it? And if so, what answer didst thou receive?
The Bible says the sign gifts would stop when that which is perfect ( i.e. Jesus) has come (back).
News Flash! … The Lord I serve is a personal God who deeply cares about His sons and daughters,
i.e. not those whom He has created, but those who are "faithful" (Ephesians 1:1) Christians.
These are those whom Paul was writing to ... only da faithful ones!
He reveals things (which are not in the Bible) to them TODAY to help them, etc.
So much for everything we NEED being in the Bible!
P.S. I do appreciate your honest efforts to try to understand what's going on.
.
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Biblicist is intelligent enough to know what I believe about born-again salvation.
He's read it a dozen times in the 3 threads ...
Baptism into the church (salvation)
This does not refer to a phony salvation, which has always been quite prevalent,
i.e. merely an intellectual belief, or conversion of one’s thinking.
But this refers to being “born again (from above)” with the Holy Spirit entering the person.
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church)
… and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)
The Holy Spirit takes up residence INSIDE the believer … John 14:16-23, Romans 8:11,
1 Corinthians 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16.
DHK, dost this ringest a bell, or have you a very poor memory?
You know something about what it is to be born again, not much, but at least something. However facts in a vacuum mean nothing. A Muslim could have given the same answer. Have you been born again? If so when and how? I have never heard a practical application of these truths to your own life. Just the "I have been preaching in Bulgaria, blah, blah, blah..."
.You guess wrong. I am not up to playing your word games, and neither is a google search engine which cannot find your imaginary abbreviation either. Making such things up as you go along is characteristic of you. You do the same with your theology.DHK, I'll hazard a guess and say that you're not university-educated, or you'd know what Mt.A. means.
Moriah,
Cannot God do whatever He desires? Have both you and Biblicist put God in a box?
Please do not compare my beliefs with those of Biblicists.
As for putting God in a box…is that what you call it when someone does not lean to the left or right of God’s word? Is that what you call looking to the scriptures to see if what we are taught is true? Is that what you call it when people do not add or subtract to God’s word?
Cannot God put the Holy Spirit INSIDE at the same time He places Him UPON?
The Bible does NOT say it. The Bible does not say Jesus is putting the Holy Spirit INSIDE a person, and then the Holy Spirit comes back out and comes UPON the person.
There surely is a distinction between Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Foist of oil, Jesus was fully man as well as fully God.
“Foist of oil”? Whom are you channeling now? Is that Popeye?
I know Jesus was fully man as well as fully God. We are talking now of Jesus after ascending to the Father. Not only that, the scriptures SAY the Spirit is the Lord. Whose Spirit do you think that you are receiving when the Spirit lives inside you? It is the Spirit of God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same.
And the gospels say the Holy Spirit was present to perform the miracles,
instead of saying Jesus was present to do them.
Do you think that it means the Spirit is NOT Jesus? Again, the scriptures tell us that the Spirit IS the Lord.
Tell me, do you not know when your receive the Holy Spirit that you are receiving Jesus?
I don’t know all of the reasons for tongues in church … ask God about that.
I have asked God about that, and God has revealed the truth to me. Do you not read what I say here in your posts?
One reason was for the unbelievers (1 Cor) … and we still have those in the pews, right?
Nothing has changed except peoples’ beliefs.
The UNBELIEVERS believed the tongue speakers because the tongue speakers were heard by the UNBELIEVERS to be speaking in their EARTHLY language. That does NOT happen in the churches today. There are not foreigners coming to your church and hearing the gospel spoken in their earthly language.
In Canada, my wife and I attended a service at “Calvary Temple”.
We experienced “a tongues and an interpretation” combo 4 times (fairly close together time-wise)
by 4 different combos of people, i.e. 8 people were involved.
Everything was done in perfect order just like Paul commands in 1 Cor.
My wife who has the gifts of discerning of spirits, tongues, and prophecy, said everything was A-OK.
What you say about your wife does not prove anything about the scriptures.
You can quit at the laying of da foundation all you want, I can’t stop you.
But, dearest one, hast thou prayed about it? And if so, what answer didst thou receive?
I have prayed about it and studied it.
The Bible says the sign gifts would stop when that which is perfect ( i.e. Jesus) has come (back).
The Bible does not say that.
News Flash! … The Lord I serve is a personal God who deeply cares about His sons and daughters,
i.e. not those whom He has created, but those who are "faithful" (Ephesians 1:1) Christians.
These are those whom Paul was writing to ... only da faithful ones!
Jesus has revealed Himself to me. Tongues and prophecies have ceased. Tell me, what is the purpose of tongues today in your home and church? The Bible says the tongue speaking in the Bible times were for a sign to the Jews; the sign was given. The Bible says the tongue speaking was for unbelievers to believe when hearing foreigners speak the word of God in their native language; that is not happening anymore with nowadays tongues. The Bible says the tongue speaking was so that the mystery could be revealed; the gospel is complete and perfect, the mystery has been revealed.
So again, tell me, why do you think tongues are real and needed in your church and home today?
He reveals things (which are not in the Bible) to them TODAY to help them, etc.
So much for everything we NEED being in the Bible!
Reveals things like what?
P.S. I do appreciate your honest efforts to try to understand what's going on.
I understand what is going on. I am glad that you are not being as rude as you once were.
evangelist-7
New Member
The purpose would be ... for God to talk to the church!What would be the purpose of the prophesy in church though?
As the bible states that we have ALL spiritual blessings in jesus, ALL believers do,
and that the Bible is the sure foundation to build doctrines upon?
No, No ... First, is it okay with you if God talks to the church?
He gives specific information for today, such as: edification, exhortation, blessings, warnings, etc.
I'll tell you ... He gives specific verses.
How'd you like to be in prayer about something ... and He gives the answer through a verse or two?
And it's incredibly right on point. Verses you hardly even knew existed. Want examples?
This happened to my #1 helper in Bulgaria ... several times!
I thought ALL worthwhile doctrines are only in the Bible. How can Bible doctrines be built upon?
What, creating new ones out of old ones ... or just modifying/expanding on the old ones?
Your situation baffles me re: leaving pentecost ... perhaps I'll see if my wife has some insight.
Just had a thought ... leaving pentecost is following the RC and Orthodox churches, which began around 300-400 a.d.
'Twas all about man wanting to be in charge ... instead of the Holy Spirit.
.
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evangelist-7
New Member
No Muslim would give that answer ... they believe it is anathema!You know something about what it is to be born again, not much, but at least something. However facts in a vacuum mean nothing. A Muslim could have given the same answer. Have you been born again? If so when and how? I have never heard a practical application of these truths to your own life. Just the "I have been preaching in Bulgaria, blah, blah, blah..."
You guess wrong. I am not up to playing your word games, and neither is a google search engine which cannot find your imaginary abbreviation either. Making such things up as you go along is characteristic of you. You do the same with your theology.
They believe it's all blasphemy ... they believe the "paraclete" is M.
Since you won't say which university you went to ... I'll tell you mine: Mount Allison University.
#1 undergraduate university in Canada
#1 in Rhodes scholars in Canada.
And you've never heard of it.
.
evangelist-7
New Member
Congrats ... you're making more sense than you did a few weeks ago ... communication!The Bible does NOT say it. The Bible does not say Jesus is putting the Holy Spirit INSIDE a person,
and then the Holy Spirit comes back out and comes UPON the person.
I've given 2 distinctly different groups of verses.
How can the UPON verses be seen as salvation verses when they're involved
with tongues, spiritual power, miracles, and such?
I know Jesus was fully man as well as fully God. We are talking now of Jesus after ascending to the Father. Not only that, the scriptures SAY the Spirit is the Lord. Whose Spirit do you think that you are receiving when the Spirit lives inside you? It is the Spirit of God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same.
They are One, but They're not all "the same"; They are 3 separate Persons (Manifestations, actually).
Jesus said the Father would be sending the Holy Spirit to be INSIDE us (John 14:26).
Jesus did not say the Father would be sending Him (Jesus) back again, etc.
C'mon now, everyone distinguishes between the Three as not being "the same".
Do you think that it means the Spirit is NOT Jesus? Again, the scriptures tell us that the Spirit IS the Lord.
Tell me, do you not know when your receive the Holy Spirit that you are receiving Jesus?
Yes, in one sense, They are One ... If you have One, you have all Three.
But, for further enlightenment, you need to find the thread: An incredibly awesome TRINITY passage!
John 14 says They all come INSIDE, but only the Holy Spirit STAYS to teach, etc.
The UNBELIEVERS believed the tongue speakers because the tongue speakers were heard by the UNBELIEVERS to be speaking in their EARTHLY language. That does NOT happen in the churches today. There are not foreigners coming to your church and hearing the gospel spoken in their earthly language.
This was true on the Day of Pentecost. But, in Paul's day, tongues in church were "a sign"
for the unbelievers that God was indeed speaking to the church.
Suppose you were unsaved, and your closest friend became born again.
And you 2 gals went to church, and she spoke in tongues!
And the anointing on her was so strong that she began weeping.
Are you going to tell me that you will accuse her of trying to fool you?
Jesus has revealed Himself to me. Tongues and prophecies have ceased.
Tell me, what is the purpose of tongues today in your home and church?
So again, tell me, why do you think tongues are real and needed in your church and home today?
1) Tongues are used by the individual to praise God during praise and worship at church.
2) Tongues are used by the individual to praise God at home.
3) Tongues are meant in Romans 8:26 (I don't need the Holy Spirit to groan for me).
4) Tongues are used by God through an individual to give a message to the church,
but an interpreter must be present.
God chooses to give the prophecy in tongues, or in English ... depending on, well, you ask Him.
Sometimes, the vessel cannot put the incredible spiritual information into his own words,
so he just let's it come out in tongues.
Hi, Biblicist ... enjoying this?
.
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So the advertisement says. That is meaningless to me. What is the goal of its existence? It is a secular college offering secular studies to those who want them, even in the area of religion, which is also treated as secular. And I quote:No Muslim would give that answer ... they believe it is anathema!
They believe it's all blasphemy ... they believe the "paraclete" is M.
Since you won't say which university you went to ... I'll tell you mine: Mount Allison University.
#1 undergraduate university in Canada
#1 in Rhodes scholars in Canada.
And you've never heard of it.
.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Such a programme does not exist to advocate one faith rather than another, and least of all to proselytize on behalf of one denomination. It is designed to encourage students to study a most important aspect of human existence, and it may help them to focus and clarify their own thinking on these matters.
According to orthodox Christianity, or the Scriptures, they don't even know what "the faith" is, nor would they be able to teach it. I am not impressed. No wonder you are one confused individual.
[/FONT]
evangelist-7
New Member
Sure it's a secular university.So the advertisement says. That is meaningless to me. What is the goal of its existence? It is a secular college offering secular studies to those who want them, even in the area of religion, which is also treated as secular. And I quote:
According to orthodox Christianity, or the Scriptures, they don't even know what "the faith" is, nor would they be able to teach it. I am not impressed. No wonder you are one confused individual.[/SIZE][/FONT]
I didn't study religion there.
What does that have to do with anything?
I want to speak to an Administrator.
This is getting more ridiculous every day.
Who is this guy, DHK?
Moriah, come and save me ... you're a-lookin' better and better every day, girl!
.