1 Cor. 12:13 and water baptism and local church body

[Tom Butler]

There is a sense in which we may find the church referred to generically, or abstractly. For instance, Paul, in Ephesians 5 compares the relationship between Christ and the church with a husband and wife.

But only real, live husbands love their real, live, concrete wives.

The church may be spoken of in an institutional sense, in the same way we refer to the family, the home and marriage. But there are no universal, invisible families. They take expression in real families, real homes and real marriages

 

[saturneptune]

This has been pointed out before, but the RCC operates as a visible, universal church. Protestant churches operate as an invisible, universal church. Baptist churchs operate as a visible local church.

The RCC believes they are the one true church (LOL) in a visible manner. Since they are the one true church, according to them, members of the RCC are the universal church. This requires no true believers in other denominations.

Protestant churches all have hierarchies, but the invisible church acknowledges believes in other denominations. Their idea is that the universal church is a collection of all true believers. However, none of them can explain exactly what function on earth the universal church carries out. Most all of them repeat the Apostles Creed in Sunday services weekly saying "I believe in the holy catholic church" which is a meaningless phrase.

The Lord's work is carried out by the local church. Even in denominations with hierarchies, the local church carries out visitation and missionary work. They help the poor, minister to the sick, collect offerings, administer the ordinances, conduct worship services, edify their congregations, pray, and fellowship.

In the Apostles Creed, right after the phrase about believing in the holy catholic church, it states "I believe in the communion of saints." How can the universal church, which never meets or carries out God's work on this earth, fellowship? Fellowship is conducted at the local church level.

 

[Yeshua1]

Part of the difficulty in these discussions is the confusion between the church and the kingdom. They are not the same.

In Matthew 16, Jesus told his disciples he would build his church. He was speaking to the church he would build. Notice he did not say he would establish His church. It already existed, with the Twelve as the first members.

Jesus made his comment to an assembled group. That's the definition of a church. It assembles. It cannot be invisible. And a universal entity cannot assemble.

Further, he told this assembly (church) he would give them the keys to the kingdom. That is, the church (assembly) has the keys to the kingdom. It is the authority to declare the terms of entry into the kingdom.

The kingdom is the domain of the King; that makes it universal.

In Matthew 18, Jesus said "tell it to the church." He never spoke this way of the kingdom.

The church is spoken of as a body. The Kingdom is never described as such.

Churches have officers. The Kingdom has a King.

Admission to a church is by an action of the church and the administering of water baptism. God unilaterally, by the new birth, puts people into the Kingdom.

The body is a functioning entity in which all the parts function together. The imaginary universal church doesn't function at all.

Anybody drop in on a service lately at the nearby universal church? No? That's because it doesn't exist.

the Universal Church members are those part of the Body/bride of Christ, who have been saved by the grace of God thru the Cross of christ...

god sees each one of us in jesus, and in THAT Body...

Here on earth, there are individual members of that One body in different groups, such as Baptist churches, methodist, nazarene etc!

ALL in the Universal church are saved, NOT all in the local church are!

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, the Body of christ is the sum of ALl the saved in jesus, that makes them part of that body...

Some of them in heaven, some on earth, local churches are extentions of the wheat/tares, with some members also int he Universal Body, some not saved!

 

[DHK]

Again, the Body of christ is the sum of ALl the saved in jesus, that makes them part of that body...

Some of them in heaven, some on earth, local churches are extentions of the wheat/tares, with some members also int he Universal Body, some not saved!

"Ekklesia" (church) has the singular meaning of "assembly." You have no ground for your "opinion," no Biblical basis. There is no such thing as an unassembled assembly, which you are advocating as a "universal church." It has no function, no purpose, no leaders, no place of worship, nothing! It is imaginary and not spoken of in the Bible. Why speak dogmatically of something that doesn't exist? Present your case from Scripture if you can. Just don't state opinion as fact.

The body of Christ is not the sum of all the saved in Christ. No such thing is taught in the Word. That is an opinionated statement with no basis in the Word.

 

[Yeshua1]

"Ekklesia" (church) has the singular meaning of "assembly." You have no ground for your "opinion," no Biblical basis. There is no such thing as an unassembled assembly, which you are advocating as a "universal church." It has no function, no purpose, no leaders, no place of worship, nothing! It is imaginary and not spoken of in the Bible. Why speak dogmatically of something that doesn't exist? Present your case from Scripture if you can. Just don't state opinion as fact.

The body of Christ is not the sum of all the saved in Christ. No such thing is taught in the Word. That is an opinionated statement with no basis in the Word.

the Bibvle states that we are saved ansdplaced with ONE Body/ONE Bride of Christ, that God knows ONLY those within that Body as his own!

IF a Chrsitian is NOT in membership in a local church, what church would he be part of, for outside the Body of Christ is NO salvation!

 

[DHK]

the Bibvle states that we are saved ansdplaced with ONE Body/ONE Bride of Christ, that God knows ONLY those within that Body as his own!

Thank you for your Biblical response and all the Scriptural back up!
Opinion remains opinion.

Take a look at Scripture.
1 Corinthians 12:27 υμεις δε εστε σωμα χριστου και μελη εκ μερους
In English:
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
The word "soma" is the word for "body." But you will note that in the Greek there is no article "the" before it. It was inserted by the translators. It could just as easily be translated as "a body," and probably should be, for it is addressed to "the body of Christ," and its members which are in the assembly at Corinth. He is addressing the believers in Corinth and no one else. He is not writing to some esoterical, mystical, existential, pie-in-the-sky universal non-existent entity that these believers have never heard of.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
--They are the church or the assembly which is at Corinth. They are composed of those that are sanctified in Christ, called to be saints. But they are the ones that are in Corinth; not Ephesus, or Rome, or any other place--it is in Corinth, the assembly which is in Corinth--that particular body of Christ.

To this body he addresses in this way:
1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
--They are one body, and they have many members. Each member of the church, this local assembly, is a member of this body of Christ. The body is one, and the members are many. Read this chapter carefully.

Again the emphasis:
1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
--He is speaking only to those at Corinth.

To demonstrate beyond any shadow of a doubt that this is a Corinthian local church, applicable to only a local church of any kind, look what he says:
1 Corinthians 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

What does this mean? It means that if one of our members is suffering and dying a slow death of cancer that all of the members of our church are suffering with that member, praying with her, helping her, empathizing as much as possible. We suffer with her. Do you? No! You have no idea who I am talking about. Neither do most of the churches in North America, South America, Africa, Asia, Europe, and the rest of the world. It is our local church where our members suffer with each other and rejoice with each other. No one else does, not as we do--our church family. No one cares more than our church family--not even their immediate family. The body of Christ here is the local church. That is what this passage teaches.

IF a Chrsitian is NOT in membership in a local church, what church would he be part of, for outside the Body of Christ is NO salvation!

If a person is not baptized he would be in disobedience to God.
If a person is not a member of a local church he would be in disobedience to God.
This has nothing to do with your salvation; but rather your obedience to God.

Every time the word "church" is used it is translated from the word "ekklesia," meaning assembly. There are only local assemblies. There is no such thing as an unassembled assembly.

 

[Yeshua1]

So how are we all in One Body, if there are baptists/methodist/zararene etc local churches? God has ONLY one Body/brise for jesus, do you see each local church of weach group one of his brides?

 

[DHK]

So how are we all in One Body, if there are baptists/methodist/zararene etc local churches? God has ONLY one Body/brise for jesus, do you see each local church of weach group one of his brides?

If you can't use definitive terms within the context of actual Scripture I cannot answer your questions or even carry on a reasonable conversation or debate. What are you talking about? Give Scripture.

Every believer is born again. Into what? Into the family of God.
See John 1:12,13. "But as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name....

The bride of Christ is made up of all believers.
What does that have to do with the local church?
Are you saved? Does Christ dwell in you?
I am saved. Christ dwells in me.
Is there more than one Christ, therefore? This seems to be your logic.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again, the Body of christ is the sum of ALl the saved in jesus, that makes them part of that body...

Some of them in heaven, some on earth, local churches are extentions of the wheat/tares, with some members also int he Universal Body, some not saved!

Don't you get tired of making empty assertions? They are empty because you have no scripture contextually interpreted to base them on!

 

[Tom Butler]

DHK and saturneptune, thanks for your clear and cogent arguments on the subject of the local vs universal church.

The question was raised about someone who is saved, but not yet baptized. The answer is that he has been placed in the kingdom, but only water baptism will place him in a church.

Some are reluctant to say this, but some affiliated with other faith groups, are members of groups which cannot qualify as New Testament churches. That explains why Baptists as a general rule will not accept the baptism of these groups.

 

[Tom Butler]

the Bibvle states that we are saved ansdplaced with ONE Body/ONE Bride of Christ, that God knows ONLY those within that Body as his own!

IF a Chrsitian is NOT in membership in a local church, what church would he be part of, for outside the Body of Christ is NO salvation!

Would you please cite the scripture verses which specifically say this?

 

[Yeshua1]

Would you please cite the scripture verses which specifically say this?

New International Version (©1984)
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,
New Living Translation (©2007)
You have come to the assembly of God's firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect.

English Standard Version (©2001)
and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,



God sees JUST the saved as part of the true church of christ, we subdivide over terms of churches here like Baptists/methodists/etc!

 

[The Biblicist]

New International Version (©1984)
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,
New Living Translation (©2007)
You have come to the assembly of God's firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect.

English Standard Version (©2001)
and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,



God sees JUST the saved as part of the true church of christ, we subdivide over terms of churches here like Baptists/methodists/etc!

Notice that the writer says they "have" already come not that they will come. When the New Testament congregation assembles ON EARTH it does so as the "temple of the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 3:16) and thus God is present as well as angels (Eph. 3:10).

Notice this is in direct contrast to a visible assembly of the congregation at the foot of Mount Sinai where God also was present ON EARTH and angels.

Their names are "written" or "enrolled" in heaven but they are still ON EARTH as they are the recipients of this epistle to the Hebrews.

 

[DHK]

God sees JUST the saved as part of the true church of christ, we subdivide over terms of churches here like Baptists/methodists/etc!

Please read the First Epistle to the Corinthians.
Notice how each chapter is directed to problems that are in that local church.

Not to side-track this discussion into another topic, but to demonstrate the problems that a local church had, read John MacArthur's description of the church at Corinth in his discussion of the gift of tongues:

[FONT=&quot]I'll put it this way: can a group of Christians who are worldly, divisive, opinionated, cliquish, carnal, fleshly, envious, strife-ridden, argumentative, puffed up, self-glorying, smug, immoral, compromising with sin, defrauding each other, fornicating, depriving in marriage, offending weaker Christians, lusting after evil things, idolatrous, fellowshipping with demons, insubordinate, gluttonous, drunken, selfish toward the poor, and desecrating the Lord's Table be expressing a true gift of the Holy Spirit?[/FONT]

Is every local church like that? I hope not. But this "body of Christ" was. And it is in 1Cor.12 where we find the expression "body of Christ" as applied to this church.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please read the First Epistle to the Corinthians.
Notice how each chapter is directed to problems that are in that local church.

Not to side-track this discussion into another topic, but to demonstrate the problems that a local church had, read John MacArthur's description of the church at Corinth in his discussion of the gift of tongues:

[FONT=&quot]I'll put it this way: can a group of Christians who are worldly, divisive, opinionated, cliquish, carnal, fleshly, envious, strife-ridden, argumentative, puffed up, self-glorying, smug, immoral, compromising with sin, defrauding each other, fornicating, depriving in marriage, offending weaker Christians, lusting after evil things, idolatrous, fellowshipping with demons, insubordinate, gluttonous, drunken, selfish toward the poor, and desecrating the Lord's Table be expressing a true gift of the Holy Spirit?[/FONT]

Is every local church like that? I hope not. But this "body of Christ" was. And it is in 1Cor.12 where we find the expression "body of Christ" as applied to this church.

So whatwould the fulness of the saved by grace of God be called than?

 

[Yeshua1]

DHK and saturneptune, thanks for your clear and cogent arguments on the subject of the local vs universal church.

The question was raised about someone who is saved, but not yet baptized. The answer is that he has been placed in the kingdom, but only water baptism will place him in a church.

Some are reluctant to say this, but some affiliated with other faith groups, are members of groups which cannot qualify as New Testament churches. That explains why Baptists as a general rule will not accept the baptism of these groups.

Aren't all christians one ijn Christ though? that we are in ONE Body, regardless wether we assemble under name Baptist or not?

 

[The Biblicist]

Aren't all christians one ijn Christ though? that we are in ONE Body, regardless wether we assemble under name Baptist or not?

You are ignoring other Biblical terms for that oneness. They are ONE family because they all equally share new birth and they are ONE kingdom because they all equally serve one King but they are not ONE church because they do not all assemble together and that is the meaning of ekklesia.

 

[DHK]

So whatwould the fulness of the saved by grace of God be called than?

Please don't quote expressions without context or at least without giving the reference.
We are saved by the grace of God. That is what salvation is. Salvation has nothing to do with church membership, which is and always will be a matter of obedience. Every church is a body of Christ. Please read carefully 1 Corinthians 12, and then explain to me how that Paul could not be describing "a body."

 

[Tom Butler]

Please don't quote expressions without context or at least without giving the reference.
We are saved by the grace of God. That is what salvation is. Salvation has nothing to do with church membership, which is and always will be a matter of obedience. Every church is a body of Christ. Please read carefully 1 Corinthians 12, and then explain to me how that Paul could not be describing "a body."

And not just a body, but THE body. (12:27)

It's also useful to review Acts 20, where Paul is giving his farewell to the elders of FBC Ephesus. He urges the elders to feed the Church of God. Which one? Why, the one over whom he had made them overseers. Which one is that? FBC Ephesus. The one for whom Jesus had shed his blood. A local congregation.