1 Cor. 12:13 and water baptism and local church body

[The Biblicist]

And not just a body, but THE body. (12:27)

It's also useful to review Acts 20, where Paul is giving his farewell to the elders of FBC Ephesus. He urges the elders to feed the Church of God. Which one? Why, the one over whom he had made them overseers. Which one is that? FBC Ephesus. The one for whom Jesus had shed his blood. A local congregation.

Not only is it "the" body of Christ but it is 'the body of Christ" wherein it is commanded and it is possible for "ALL" members of that body to rejoice with "ONE" member and "ALL" members of that body to sorrow with "ONE" member (1 Cor. 12:25-27).

This is not possible with the kind of "body of Christ" you imagine the Bible teaches. It can't be done!

 

[DHK]

Not only is it "the" body of Christ but it is 'the body of Christ" wherein it is commanded and it is possible for "ALL" members of that body to rejoice with "ONE" member and "ALL" members of that body to sorrow with "ONE" member (1 Cor. 12:25-27).

This is not possible with the kind of "body of Christ" you imagine the Bible teaches. It can't be done!

It was translated by the KJV as "the body of Christ," which they must have had a good reason to do so. Having said that, the definite article is not there and can be translated "a body of Christ."
The comparison can be made that as Christ dwells in you, and Christ dwells in me, Christ still is one. There is only one Christ. We still say the Christ, the Son of God. We do not say "a Christ." The local church in that sense is the body of Christ, as described in 1Cor.12, as is every Bible-believing church which has Christ as its foundation and is built upon the apostles and prophets, Christ being the chief cornerstone. It is that church which is the pillar and ground of the truth (the Word of God). There is no nebulous universal church. The phrase "the body of Christ" here is used in a generic sense to represent all Biblical local churches.
We all suffer (in our own local churches) with our own members in our own bodies, but not necessarily with those of other bodies that we no nothing about.

 

[Yeshua1]

It was translated by the KJV as "the body of Christ," which they must have had a good reason to do so. Having said that, the definite article is not there and can be translated "a body of Christ."
The comparison can be made that as Christ dwells in you, and Christ dwells in me, Christ still is one. There is only one Christ. We still say the Christ, the Son of God. We do not say "a Christ." The local church in that sense is the body of Christ, as described in 1Cor.12, as is every Bible-believing church which has Christ as its foundation and is built upon the apostles and prophets, Christ being the chief cornerstone. It is that church which is the pillar and ground of the truth (the Word of God). There is no nebulous universal church. The phrase "the body of Christ" here is used in a generic sense to represent all Biblical local churches.
We all suffer (in our own local churches) with our own members in our own bodies, but not necessarily with those of other bodies that we no nothing about.

Isn't jesus Lord over JSUT one Body, his bride though? That if there was NO local churches assembling, he would still be in and with the Body, being in and with each local Christian?

 

[DHK]

Isn't jesus Lord over JSUT one Body, his bride though? That if there was NO local churches assembling, he would still be in and with the Body, being in and with each local Christian?

You're confusing terminology. His bride isn't the local church which is his body. Study 1Cor.12. The chapter describes a body, the body which exists, and can only exist at Corinth.
The bride consists of all believers, and is not the local church.
There is no universal body. There is no universal church. The word means ekklesia. It can only be translated "assembly." How can one have an "unassembled assembly." It is an impossibility, a contradiction of terms.

 

[Yeshua1]

You're confusing terminology. His bride isn't the local church which is his body. Study 1Cor.12. The chapter describes a body, the body which exists, and can only exist at Corinth.
The bride consists of all believers, and is not the local church.
There is no universal body. There is no universal church. The word means ekklesia. It can only be translated "assembly." How can one have an "unassembled assembly." It is an impossibility, a contradiction of terms.

So you are saying that the local churches are his 'body" into their communities, while all the Chritians in all those churches together constitute His bride?

What about churches that are not baptist/"NT" churches then?

 

[DHK]

So you are saying that the local churches are his 'body" into their communities, while all the Chritians in all those churches together constitute His bride?

What about churches that are not baptist/"NT" churches then?

Man is a sinner.
Which man? Joe, Mary, John, or Fred?
All mankind are sinners. Man is a generic word; a singular word used to represent all of mankind, not just one person.

Ekklesia means church, a local church; specifically it means assembly.
In 1Cor.12 it is referred to as the body of Christ, or in the very least "a body of Christ." It is used generically. As it is one body of Christ, so are all local churches a body of Christ as their foundation is the apostles and prophets with Christ being the chief cornerstone, and the same local church being the pillar and ground of the truth. That is what we are called to do. Our ground (foundation) is the Word of God. As pillars we hold up the Word so that all can see it.

All of this has nothing to do with his bride. Some day Christ will return and the rapture will take place. At that time he will gather his bride (all believers), whether or not they have obeyed the Lord in baptism, whether or not they have obeyed the Lord in church membership, to be with him. All who have trusted the Lord as Savior are part of that bride. It is essential to have our terminology correct here. All who have been born again are born into the family God. Every believer is part of God's family.

It is not necessary, therefore, to restrict the use of the "body of Christ" to the non-existent, so-called, "universal church" which has no function or place in the NT. It just doesn't exist. All believers do exist together as a family, as a bride, but not as the body of Christ. That term is reserved for local churches. Every local church is a body of Christ. Study 1Cor.12 and tell me how you can read it and not come to the conclusion that Paul is not describing a body?

 

[Tom Butler]

Revelation 21:2

Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

A couple of observations: Here, the bride is described as the holy city, the New Jerusalem. What exactly is that? A real city?

And then we have the Marriage Supper of the Lamb described in Revelation 19.

I note that these are both passages about future events. I also note that there is an general assembly involved in heaven. The bride assembles. This is a prospective view, not a present reality.

 

[Yeshua1]

Revelation 21:2

A couple of observations: Here, the bride is described as the holy city, the New Jerusalem. What exactly is that? A real city?

And then we have the Marriage Supper of the Lamb described in Revelation 19.

I note that these are both passages about future events. I also note that there is an general assembly involved in heaven. The bride assembles. This is a prospective view, not a present reality.

So how do you view body Bride Kingdom

 

[Tom Butler]

So you are saying that the local churches are his 'body" into their communities, while all the Chritians in all those churches together constitute His bride?

What about churches that are not baptist/"NT" churches then?

DHK can answer for himiself, but here's my take:

No, to question one. All believers constitute the kingdom. When we gather at the Marriage Supper, then we will be the bride. Not until then.

Qiestion two. There are many faith groups which call themelves churches, but are not. They teach and practice error. There may be saved individuals in those groups, but they are so despite the teachings of their faith group. Those individuals are members of the kingdom, and will eventually be part of the bride, but they are not part of a NT church.

A group which teaches salvation by works is not a true NT church. A group which denies the resurrection of Jesus is not a true NT church. If there are saved individuals in those gorups, it is by the grace of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

It was translated by the KJV as "the body of Christ," which they must have had a good reason to do so. Having said that, the definite article is not there and can be translated "a body of Christ."

Correct! I knew that but my memory is not what it used to be.

The comparison can be made that as Christ dwells in you, and Christ dwells in me, Christ still is one. There is only one Christ.

That is a great analogy and serves the point well.

We still say the Christ, the Son of God. We do not say "a Christ." The local church in that sense is the body of Christ, as described in 1Cor.12, as is every Bible-believing church which has Christ as its foundation and is built upon the apostles and prophets, Christ being the chief cornerstone. It is that church which is the pillar and ground of the truth (the Word of God). There is no nebulous universal church. The phrase "the body of Christ" here is used in a generic sense to represent all Biblical local churches.
We all suffer (in our own local churches) with our own members in our own bodies, but not necessarily with those of other bodies that we no nothing about.

Yep, couldn't agree more! The fact that Paul says "ALL" the members are to rejoice and sorrow with "ONE" member within the kind of church body he is describing pretty well destroys the idea it is the kind that includes all Christians in heaven and earth or even all on earth as that is utterly impossible and for Paul to even suggest a thing in regard to that kind of body is impractical and irrational.

 

[Yeshua1]

DHK can answer for himiself, but here's my take:

No, to question one. All believers constitute the kingdom. When we gather at the Marriage Supper, then we will be the bride. Not until then.

Qiestion two. There are many faith groups which call themelves churches, but are not. They teach and practice error. There may be saved individuals in those groups, but they are so despite the teachings of their faith group. Those individuals are members of the kingdom, and will eventually be part of the bride, but they are not part of a NT church.

A group which teaches salvation by works is not a true NT church. A group which denies the resurrection of Jesus is not a true NT church. If there are saved individuals in those gorups, it is by the grace of God.

So you would say that christians can and are part of say Anglican church, or the Lutheryn church, or even catholic church, but their churches are not NT churches, correct?

 

[Tom Butler]

So you would say that christians can and are part of say Anglican church, or the Lutheryn church, or even catholic church, but their churches are not NT churches, correct?

And, sometimes the truth is preached in those faith groups. That doesn't make them NT churches.

 

[The Biblicist]

So you would say that christians can and are part of say Anglican church, or the Lutheryn church, or even catholic church, but their churches are not NT churches, correct?

There are Biblical essentials that are required to recognize a person as a Christian, without which, they should not be recognized as such.

Likewise, there are Biblical essentials that are required to recognize a group of professing Christians as a New Testament congregation, without which, they should not be recognized as such.

For example, most Masonic lodges require a belief in God in America and most are made up of professing Christians who assemble on a regular basis. However, that assembly cannot be recognized as a New Testament Congregation even if it is made up of Christians for several reasons even though it may be composed of true born again Christians.

There are different Biblical essentials to be recognized as a christian as opposed to being recognized as a New Testament congregation as a New Testament congregation requires more than mere salvation.

For example, a saved practicing Roman Catholic may assemble with a saved practicing Episcopalian, a saved Seventh Day Adventists, a saved Assembly of God person, and a mixture of other denominational saved Christians but that doses not make that assembly a New Testament congregation. They may hold a common salvation but they do not hold a common baptism or practice but are totally divided when it comes to their practice.

Ten Christians who practice baptism differently, practice the Lord's Supper differently, interpret the scriptures concerning church leaders, church government differently cannot be compared or regarded as a New Testament congregation IF the New Testament is our guide to what is and what is not a true New Testament congregation. Besides, that kind of division destroys any kind of true unity in worship and practice. However, that is really the kind of "church" you are advocating.

 

[Yeshua1]

There are Biblical essentials that are required to recognize a person as a Christian, without which, they should not be recognized as such.

Likewise, there are Biblical essentials that are required to recognize a group of professing Christians as a New Testament congregation, without which, they should not be recognized as such.

For example, most Masonic lodges require a belief in God in America and most are made up of professing Christians who assemble on a regular basis. However, that assembly cannot be recognized as a New Testament Congregation even if it is made up of Christians for several reasons even though it may be composed of true born again Christians.

There are different Biblical essentials to be recognized as a christian as opposed to being recognized as a New Testament congregation as a New Testament congregation requires more than mere salvation.

For example, a saved practicing Roman Catholic may assemble with a saved practicing Episcopalian, a saved Seventh Day Adventists, a saved Assembly of God person, and a mixture of other denominational saved Christians but that doses not make that assembly a New Testament congregation. They may hold a common salvation but they do not hold a common baptism or practice but are totally divided when it comes to their practice.

Ten Christians who practice baptism differently, practice the Lord's Supper differently, interpret the scriptures concerning church leaders, church government differently cannot be compared or regarded as a New Testament congregation IF the New Testament is our guide to what is and what is not a true New Testament congregation. Besides, that kind of division destroys any kind of true unity in worship and practice. However, that is really the kind of "church" you are advocating.

So you would see others not in NT churches as being part of the Bride of Christ, but not in one of His churches?

 

[DHK]

So you would see others not in NT churches as being part of the Bride of Christ, but not in one of His churches?

That is the way I would see it. All believers make up the Bride of Christ.
Church membership is a matter of obedience, as is baptism. Many Christians are disobedient on both counts.

 

[Jack Matthews]

There are Biblical essentials that are required to recognize a person as a Christian, without which, they should not be recognized as such.

Likewise, there are Biblical essentials that are required to recognize a group of professing Christians as a New Testament congregation, without which, they should not be recognized as such.

Can you post a scripture reference where the Bible specifically says that there are essentials that are required to recognize a group of people as a "church" and where there are essentials that are required to call a person a "Christian"?

The only comprehensive list I can find is in I John:

1:7, Walk in the light, as He is in the light
1:9, Confess our sin, which leads to forgiveness and purification or sanctification
2:6, Obedience to Jesus, by walking as Jesus did
2:10, Love your brother
2:15, Do not love the world, but do the will of God
2:23, Acknowledge the Son
3:6, Do not continue in sin
3:10, Do what is right, love your brother
3:11, Love one another
3:16, Lay down our life for our brothers
3:17-18, Love with actions and in truth, with material possessions for those in need
3:23, Believe in the name of his son, Jesus Christ and to love one another
3:24, Obey his commands
4:2, Acknowledge that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
4:7, Love one another
4:15, acknowledge through the Spirit that Jesus is the Son of God
4:16-19, demonstrate God in us by loving our brother
4:21, Love your brother
5:2, Love God and carry out his commands
5:12, He who has the Son has life
5:18, Do not continue in sin

So, here's what I get from that. The essentials for a Christian are, 1) the acknowledgement of Jesus as the Son of God and savior, 2) Repentance and confession of sin unto forgiveness, 3) Obedience to the command of God, which is primarily to love your brother, and 4) Don't continue in sin after you've confessed and been sanctified.

 

[DHK]

What you gave were first: how to be saved, and then some of the things that God requires for Christian obedience, that is our growth in Christ.

No man is an island. We don't live unto ourselves.
As a missionary Paul went on three missionary journeys and established over one hundred churches.
Every one of his epistles were written either to local churches (which were organized) or to pastors of local churches (like Timothy at Ephesus).
Jesus wrote to seven pastors of seven actual churches mentioned in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

A church is an assembly of baptized (immersed) believers who have voluntarily come together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and carrying out the two ordinances (The Lord's Supper and Baptism), as the Lord has commanded us.

It requires organization, leadership, direction, etc. It is not just "where two or three are gathered together."

 

[The Biblicist]

Can you post a scripture reference where the Bible specifically says that there are essentials that are required to recognize a group of people as a "church" and where there are essentials that are required to call a person a "Christian"?

The only comprehensive list I can find is in I John:

1:7, Walk in the light, as He is in the light
1:9, Confess our sin, which leads to forgiveness and purification or sanctification
2:6, Obedience to Jesus, by walking as Jesus did
2:10, Love your brother
2:15, Do not love the world, but do the will of God
2:23, Acknowledge the Son
3:6, Do not continue in sin
3:10, Do what is right, love your brother
3:11, Love one another
3:16, Lay down our life for our brothers
3:17-18, Love with actions and in truth, with material possessions for those in need
3:23, Believe in the name of his son, Jesus Christ and to love one another
3:24, Obey his commands
4:2, Acknowledge that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
4:7, Love one another
4:15, acknowledge through the Spirit that Jesus is the Son of God
4:16-19, demonstrate God in us by loving our brother
4:21, Love your brother
5:2, Love God and carry out his commands
5:12, He who has the Son has life
5:18, Do not continue in sin

So, here's what I get from that. The essentials for a Christian are, 1) the acknowledgement of Jesus as the Son of God and savior, 2) Repentance and confession of sin unto forgiveness, 3) Obedience to the command of God, which is primarily to love your brother, and 4) Don't continue in sin after you've confessed and been sanctified.

Matthew 28:19-20 along with its application in Acts 2:41-42. There are three distinct divisions in this command.

1. go with the gospel - Aorist tense - viewed as a completed action prior to baptism and teaching - evangelization.

2. "baptizing" - the first act of obedience of saved person - transition between salvation and congregationalizing them.

3. "teaching them to observe" this is further explained in Acts 2:41 beginning with the words "added unto them...continuing stedfastly in the apostles doctrine" or congregationalziing for instruction and observation.


All churches in the New Testament followed this pattern. They evangelized the lost (salvation) then the newly saved person publicly confessed Christ in baptism and it is out of such materials New Testament congregations were consistenly formed in the New Testament.

This is precisely how Christ built the first church in Jerusalem. John the Baptist and Jesus evangelized - preached the gospel as spelled out in John 3;16 (Jesus) and John 3;36/Acts 19:5) and then from this baptized professing Christ believers Jesus formed them into his first congegation - Acts 2:41-42. After this pattern the Great Commission is designed - Mt. 28:19-20.

 

[Yeshua1]

What you gave were first: how to be saved, and then some of the things that God requires for Christian obedience, that is our growth in Christ.

No man is an island. We don't live unto ourselves.
As a missionary Paul went on three missionary journeys and established over one hundred churches.
Every one of his epistles were written either to local churches (which were organized) or to pastors of local churches (like Timothy at Ephesus).
Jesus wrote to seven pastors of seven actual churches mentioned in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

A church is an assembly of baptized (immersed) believers who have voluntarily come together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and carrying out the two ordinances (The Lord's Supper and Baptism), as the Lord has commanded us.

It requires organization, leadership, direction, etc. It is not just "where two or three are gathered together."

Would you carry this into the area of seperation, as you would NOT have say meetings, works with what you consider non NT churches, but would have fellowship and even work with individuals members of those churches?

 

[DHK]

Would you carry this into the area of seperation, as you would NOT have say meetings, works with what you consider non NT churches, but would have fellowship and even work with individuals members of those churches?

Yes. Our church has fellowship only with churches of like faith and order. To do otherwise would be cooperating with ecumenism which I believe is wrong.
However, on a personal basis I have no trouble fellowshipping with other believers no matter what church background that they come from.