1 Cor. 12-14

[12strings]

Again I find it interesting tha the first of this is Paul expressing that he did not want us to be ignorant on this subject..

Some people I talk to know NOTHING about the gifts of the Holy Spirit...not even what they were back when the Bible was written.

Some people know something about the gifts, but their knowledge is very limited.

I found myself in the know NOTHING side...because it was never taught at our church!

When I first embraced the truth about this it was in defense! I was debating that they no longer exist (this was how I was taught). But when they started showing me scriptures I had never seen...and I went to God and ask what is the truth about this....well, this is just the beginning of my journey into understanding of the manifestations of the Spirit.

Some people's gifts are described as wisdom, administration, evangelism, teaching, or even prophesy (known tongues)...and Paul seems to say these are more desirable than tongues...

I believe it is a mistake to say that every believer must speak in tongues. There are obviosly many Godly peope who don't...and who do...and there are just as obviously there are just as obviously those who speak in tongues but who are very immature in the faith, and use it in unhelpful ways...some even who teach heresy...

So tongues cannot be a test of the Spirit's work...They can be present in churches led by false teachers...and they can be absent among godly, faithful Christians.

 

[awaken]

Some people's gifts are described as wisdom, administration, evangelism, teaching, or even prophesy (known tongues)...and Paul seems to say these are more desirable than tongues...

I believe it is a mistake to say that every believer must speak in tongues. There are obviosly many Godly peope who don't...and who do...and there are just as obviously there are just as obviously those who speak in tongues but who are very immature in the faith, and use it in unhelpful ways...some even who teach heresy...

So tongues cannot be a test of the Spirit's work...They can be present in churches led by false teachers...and they can be absent among godly, faithful Christians.

Yes, THere are many gifts mentioned in scripture, but the ones that I was most ignorant on was the ones in 1 Cor.

Tongues has nothing to do with your salvation or maturity! This I agree! I did not say you must speak in tongues, but I think it is available to all!

 

[Tom Butler]

Do you recall why the disciples could not cast the demons out of child in Matt. 17?

Yes. They lacked faith.

Are you suggesting that if one has enough faith, he can raise the dead?

My take is that if one has one or more of those gifts, such as healing, he does not need faith. He can just do it.

 

[awaken]

Yes. They lacked faith.

Are you suggesting that if one has enough faith, he can raise the dead?

My take is that if one has one or more of those gifts, such as healing, he does not need faith. He can just do it.

The Bible says otherwise...Jesus could do nothing unless He saw His Father doing it.

No one can just do anything without the Spirit guiding them...otherwise you are just doing it in the flesh.

 

[awaken]

In Eph. 4:10-13
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Now to look at 1 Cor. 12:28

28 And * * God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

What purpose do we see that these gifts were given?

 

[John of Japan]

I do not recall ever saying that tongue was not a language. A language that the speaker does not know!

You are speculating on the Word of God here, you are not exegeting. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the speaker will not know what he is saing.

These 9 gifts (and I know there are more, but the thread is on 1 Cor.) are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, right? The interpreters that you are speaking of could be an unbeliever, right? How then can this be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

Once again you are speculating. Where does it say the interpreter could be an unbeliever. Friend, it is not good to speculate on God's Word. Let's just take it for what it says.

 

[John of Japan]

Interesting that Paul wrote and spoke about the subject of tongues, and he practiced what he preached.

Yes, he spoke Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin. He was a linguistic scholar of the first order. But he never said he spoke in a language unknown to himself, and he never claimed to speak in tongues miraculously. Please stop speculating on the Word of God.

 

[John of Japan]

In Eph. 4:10-13
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Now to look at 1 Cor. 12:28

28 And * * God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

What purpose do we see that these gifts were given?

As I said before, the fullness/baptism of the Holy Spirit is to serve God and win souls. It is never, ever for the private joy of the believer. We get our joy separately from the gifts of the Spirit.

And since you've quoted another Pauline epistle, let me ask you: why are tongues spoken of only in Acts and 1 Cor.? NO other NT book mentions them. Why is that? If tongues are so important, it seems like John and James and Jude would be talking about them. And they would appear all through Acts, not just in the first half. And Paul would teach about them in 2 Cor. too, not just 1 Cor.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, THere are many gifts mentioned in scripture, but the ones that I was most ignorant on was the ones in 1 Cor.

Tongues has nothing to do with your salvation or maturity! This I agree! I did not say you must speak in tongues, but I think it is available to all!

Have you ever spoken in tongues and won a soul to Christ like they did in Acts 2? If not, you don't have the same gift the Bible teaches.

 

[awaken]

You are speculating on the Word of God here, you are not exegeting. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the speaker will not know what he is saing.


Once again you are speculating. Where does it say the interpreter could be an unbeliever. Friend, it is not good to speculate on God's Word. Let's just take it for what it says.

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." (1 Corinthians 14:14)
This tells us that the speaker does not understand what he is saying in tongues.

I wish you would read my post a little slower, because I did not say the Bible said that an unbeliever could interpret tongues. You are the one that said those in Acts 2 interpreted...those that interpreted were unbelievers. So I do not think they were interpreting, they were actually hearing the disciples in there own language.

 

[awaken]

Yes, he spoke Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin. He was a linguistic scholar of the first order. But he never said he spoke in a language unknown to himself, and he never claimed to speak in tongues miraculously. Please stop speculating on the Word of God.

Paul spoke those languages before he became a believer, right?
So now you are saying that an unbeliever can speak in tongues..

I am sorry but when it says THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SPIRIT...it has to come from the Spirit and not our flesh. How could Paul speak in tongues without the Holy Spirit?

 

[awaken]

Have you ever spoken in tongues and won a soul to Christ like they did in Acts 2? If not, you don't have the same gift the Bible teaches.

Sorry! But the ones speaking in tongues did now preach the gospel. Peter preached!

AGAIN...People sometimes use the account of Pentecost to prove that the main purpose of tongues in the first century was for witnessing to foreigners in their native languages. That was not the purpose for tongues at Pentecost. In fact, there's not a single example in the entire New Testament of anyone speaking in tongues in order to communicate with foreigners. I have heard first-hand reports of people who communicated with foreigners by speaking in tongues, so perhaps God sometimes uses tongues for this purpose. But my point is that there's not even a hint of such a thing in the entire New Testament. That is not one of the main purposes for tongues.

 

[awaken]

As I said before, the fullness/baptism of the Holy Spirit is to serve God and win souls. It is never, ever for the private joy of the believer. We get our joy separately from the gifts of the Spirit.

And since you've quoted another Pauline epistle, let me ask you: why are tongues spoken of only in Acts and 1 Cor.? NO other NT book mentions them. Why is that? If tongues are so important, it seems like John and James and Jude would be talking about them. And they would appear all through Acts, not just in the first half. And Paul would teach about them in 2 Cor. too, not just 1 Cor.

I agree that Joy is the fruit of the Spirit, not listed in 1 Cor.

Well, maybe you need to search out the term "praying in the spirit"...

Jude says.."But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost"

Pay real close attention to what Paul says...
"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort." (1 Corinthians 14:1-3)

Paul described speaking to God in tongues, so this is a reference to the private form of tongues. When we are speaking to God in the Holy Spirit, we are praying in the Spirit

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church." (1 Corinthians 14:4)
Sounds like what Jude said in verse 20.."build yourself up." This is not a bad thing. When our spirit is strong as an individual...then it makes for the stronger body(church).

 

[awaken]

Seems like we can not get past tongues in this thread...

What about the Word of Wisdom...what do most believe this to be?

 

[John of Japan]

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." (1 Corinthians 14:14)
This tells us that the speaker does not understand what he is saying in tongues.

"The intellect gets no benefit" (A. T. Robertson). The text does not say the speaker does not understand what he is saying. That is your interpretation.

I wish you would read my post a little slower, because I did not say the Bible said that an unbeliever could interpret tongues. You are the one that said those in Acts 2 interpreted...those that interpreted were unbelievers. So I do not think they were interpreting, they were actually hearing the disciples in there own language.

Actually, no, I did not say that those in Acts 2 interpreted. I believe that they understood what they were saying, because the Bible says, "We do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." (v. 11). God is not the author of confusion, which is what it would be if they spoke without understanding.

 

[John of Japan]

Seems like we can not get past tongues in this thread...

What about the Word of Wisdom...what do most believe this to be?

It's not a miracle. It is simply special wisdom from God. The mistake most people make is assuming the spiritual gifts are all miracles, but the Bible does not say that.

 

[John of Japan]

Paul spoke those languages before he became a believer, right?
So now you are saying that an unbeliever can speak in tongues..

I am sorry but when it says THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SPIRIT...it has to come from the Spirit and not our flesh. How could Paul speak in tongues without the Holy Spirit?

Yes he did. So? I have the gift of interpretation of tongues, which allows me to translate Japanese easily, so I'm leading a new translation of the Japanese NT. God gave it to me in my DNA. Why can't He do that? Where does the Bible say God can't gift lost people? Why do you limit the Holy Spirit?

I often look at gifted lost people and wonder what God would have done with them if they had only believed and committed their lives to God.

 

[John of Japan]

I agree that Joy is the fruit of the Spirit, not listed in 1 Cor.

Well, maybe you need to search out the term "praying in the spirit"...

Jude says.."But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost"

Pay real close attention to what Paul says...
"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort." (1 Corinthians 14:1-3)

Paul described speaking to God in tongues, so this is a reference to the private form of tongues. When we are speaking to God in the Holy Spirit, we are praying in the Spirit

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church." (1 Corinthians 14:4)
Sounds like what Jude said in verse 20.."build yourself up." This is not a bad thing. When our spirit is strong as an individual...then it makes for the stronger body(church).

I've seen this over and over. As a missionary I am careful not to speak English around Japanese who can't understand it. They are not edified by that. And in America if I'm the only one who understands Japanese, no one is edified by it but me if I pray in Japanese.

Let me ask again. Have you ever won a soul to Christ with your tongues? Please answer.

 

[awaken]

I've seen this over and over. As a missionary I am careful not to speak English around Japanese who can't understand it. They are not edified by that. And in America if I'm the only one who understands Japanese, no one is edified by it but me if I pray in Japanese.

Let me ask again. Have you ever won a soul to Christ with your tongues? Please answer.

AGAIN....I ask you where in the Bible does it say to win souls with tongues?

 

[John of Japan]

Sorry! But the ones speaking in tongues did now preach the gospel. Peter preached!

Really???? They didn't give/proclaim the Gospel? Then what kind of "wonderful works of God" (v. 11) did they talk about? Do you seriously believe they were not witnessing of Christ?? Wow, I've never heard that interpretation before, even from Charismatics.

AGAIN...People sometimes use the account of Pentecost to prove that the main purpose of tongues in the first century was for witnessing to foreigners in their native languages. That was not the purpose for tongues at Pentecost. In fact, there's not a single example in the entire New Testament of anyone speaking in tongues in order to communicate with foreigners. I have heard first-hand reports of people who communicated with foreigners by speaking in tongues, so perhaps God sometimes uses tongues for this purpose. But my point is that there's not even a hint of such a thing in the entire New Testament. That is not one of the main purposes for tongues.

Then you have misunderstood what original Pentecostalism and the Azuza Street Revival was all about. Headline from a New York Newspaper in 1906: "Faith Gives Quaint Sect to Convert Africa" (McClung, op cit, p. 13). You then have no right to claim them as your spiritual forbears.

Tongues as practiced by modern Charismatics is selfish and divisive. They don't use it to win souls, but for their own glory and selfish happiness. Furthermore it is divisive. Three times Japanese Charismatics have caused trouble in my churches in Japan. One time I have had a Japanese woman try to make me talk in tongues (didn't even know where a Bible command was to do so, because there are no such commands). Did they help the Japanese to be better believers? No. Did they help the Japanese believers to witness for Christ? No. They only caused trouble. If modern tongues were Biblical, they would edify, not divide.