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1 Cor. 6:15 defines the nature of the TRUE body of Christ
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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Are you a sinless Christian? Do you think you must sinless TO BE a Christian or to represent Christ by the name "Christian"? The saint can represent Christ in their imperfect state as regeneration is the only requirement to be a child of God.
To be a true metaphorical (representative) body of Christ does not require sinless perfection. The congregational body of baptized believers can represent Christ in their imperfect state as long as their profession of Christ manifested in baptism conforms to the gospel and their faith and order conforms to the New Testament. Paul says that such members are designed for the ultimate edification of the rest of the members (1 Cor. 11:18). Of course MANIFEST lost professors are to be removed by church discipline, but their presence does not invalidate the representative capacity of any congregation befor or after that exclusion.
For example, Acts 20:28 in its context demands it refers to the congregation located at Ephesus. It is these elders (v. 17) that the Holy Ghost made overseers over this flock. It is this same flock that can be infiltrated by false teachers from without and within and lead members of this flock out of it (vv. 29-30). Yet, Paul uses the terms of redemption to describe it BECAUSE he describes them according to their profession manifest in baptism.
Again, brethren, please provide any text in that chapter that mentions the church?
This is unfair brother because you yourself issued this challenge in th o/p
HankD
Hank, the OP says nothing about any challenge concerning Romans 11. You have agreed with Aaron that Romans 11 speaks of the church, I am demanding proof. Where does it even mention the church, the body of Christ, the house of God, etc.??? That is not unfair to make you back up your assertions.
OK I will modify the questions:
The "Mixed Multitude".
Not concerned with their sanctification but their justification.
What of a group of properly baptized individuals some of which are not born again Is this a True body of Christ"?
If only one individual is saved in that collection of believers is this a "TRUE body of Christ"?
What percentage of saved individuals of a properly water baptized assembly does it take to make a "TRUE body of Christ"?
HankD
The "Mixed Multitude".
Not concerned with their sanctification but their justification.
What of a group of properly baptized individuals some of which are not born again Is this a True body of Christ"?
If only one individual is saved in that collection of believers is this a "TRUE body of Christ"?
What percentage of saved individuals of a properly water baptized assembly does it take to make a "TRUE body of Christ"?
HankD
B, where did I agree with Aaron that Romans 11 speaks of the church?
I do however agree that the church is not mentioned in Romans 11.
I will then address the 3 questions I posed (in either form) as related to your exposition of 1 Corinthians 12 in the o/p
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Thanks
HankD
Did you miss my post that directly answered this supposition? The only other option to a "TRUE" body of Christ is a "FALSE" body of Christ. Your argument demands that you repudiate the metaphorical use of "members" with regard to the local congregational body of baptized believers. The very term "members" in 1 Cor. 6:15 is a metaphorical expression that has no value apart from a metaphorical body "of Christ." as 1 Corinthians 12:13 proves. According to your theory, if one metaphorical "member" in your own congregation is a Judas then your congregation is a FALSE metaphorical "body" presumably "of Christ."
Again, salvation has to do with the state of the spirit, whereas metaphorical membership in a metaphorical body of Christ has to do with proper representation by profession in baptism and in doctrine as that is what is conveyed by a metaphor. However, salvation is not a metaphor but an actual spiritual condition. N.T. congregations have no ability to discern a spiritual state, but only the proper representative conditions for metaphorical membership in the metaphorical body of Christ - a proper profession of faith properly manifested in both mouth and baptism.
Post #20 "agreed"
Thank you, as that is pretty obvious.
The OP is not about 1 Cor. 12:13 but about 1 Cor. 6:15. Please deal with that text first, as 1 Cor. 12:12-27 is only mentioned to support the idea of "members OF CHRIST" refers to the metaphorical body of Christ as 1 Cor. 12:12 and 27 explicitly identify "members" with that body.
OK, I'm not sure how this explanation applies to my questions.
It seems you are saying that a local church (1 Corinthians 12:28) is a/the "TRUE body of Christ" even if in reality they are not all regenerate.
True?
HankD
Hank, first I don't think I ever referenced 1 Cor. 12:28 but rather 1 Cor. 12:27 and the plural "ye" as contrasted to "we" and the direct use of "members" as evidence for the phrase "members of Christ" in 1 Cor. 6:15.
I believe that 1 Cor. 12:12-26, 28 are abstract references whereas verse 27 is the concrete application.
I mistakenly used 1 Cor. 12:13 in the quote you copied from me. I meant 1 Cor. 12:12 and 27 as they are the texts I used in the OP
I believe you are dodging the three questions brother.
Only God Himself knows who are the elect written in the Lamb's book of life in any mixed multitude even if all the physical members have been properly baptized and vetted by the deacons and pastor.
These are they IMO who constitute the church locally, globally or in heaven collectively awaiting the resurrection, these are seen and known only by God. The church of Matthew 16:18.
HankD
I don't see how I am dodging your questions at all, as I pointedly answered them. Salvation deals with the state of your soul, whereas metaphorical membership in a metaphorical body of Christ deals with your profession as manifested in baptism and your walk in life. The nature of a metaphor is REPRESENTATION whereas the nature of salvation is LITERAL and SPIRITUAL. You are confusing the two. Moreover, your view would demand that no local church body ever use the word "member" in any biblical sense with regard to their church if ever a lost person was ever to be found among you.
In essence, you are confusing the STATE of the heart with REPRESENTATION by profession and actions. The first only the Lord knows and if that was the condition for membership in the congregational body there would be no congregational bodies at all.
However, more importantly, you are attempting to change the subject from the OP which is that 1 Cor. 6:15 is concrete and absolute proof that your view is wrong. You are attempting to ignore any direct dealing with that text by changing the text and subject and then use circular reasoning to defend your position. I say "circular" reasoning because you are making the assumption that 1 Cor. 6:15 is teaching your position and then using that assumption to prove it by another text.
I challenge you to deal with the evidence presented in the OP rather than trying to change the topic and text.
I will simply reiterate my position and let the readers decide for themselves brother B.
First, I don't believe I am confusing anything but rather defining the term "the universal church" or "unseen church" as the church which is knowable by God alone.
Some have complained that we can't find the terminology above concerning the church but neither can we find the word "metaphor" used concerning the church or body of Christ or even the "local" church and neither can the words the "metaphorical" body of Christ be found either.
We all believe in the Trinity. So, granted we all use terminology not associated with certain doctrine and then find passages which support (rightfully or wrongfully) our belief.
I am certainly not denying the importance of the "local" church.
In the o/p the last statement was a challenge :
"Now Gentleman, you must demonstrate how physical human bodies can be part of your universal invisible Reformed Catholic invented doctrine of the church. Good luck!"
To which I say:
The universal church is the collective regenerate who constitute the church locally, globally and in heaven awaiting the resurrection who are seen and known only to God. The church of Matthew 16:18.
Thank you for your well wishing
HankD
First, I don't believe I am confusing anything but rather defining the term "the universal church" or "unseen church" as the church which is knowable by God alone.
Some have complained that we can't find the terminology above concerning the church but neither can we find the word "metaphor" used concerning the church or body of Christ or even the "local" church and neither can the words the "metaphorical" body of Christ be found either.
We all believe in the Trinity. So, granted we all use terminology not associated with certain doctrine and then find passages which support (rightfully or wrongfully) our belief.
I am certainly not denying the importance of the "local" church.
In the o/p the last statement was a challenge :
"Now Gentleman, you must demonstrate how physical human bodies can be part of your universal invisible Reformed Catholic invented doctrine of the church. Good luck!"
To which I say:
The universal church is the collective regenerate who constitute the church locally, globally and in heaven awaiting the resurrection who are seen and known only to God. The church of Matthew 16:18.
Thank you for your well wishing
HankD
In the o/p the last statement was a challenge :
"Now Gentleman, you must demonstrate how physical human bodies can be part of your universal invisible Reformed Catholic invented doctrine of the church. Good luck!"
To which I say:
The universal church is the collective regenerate who constitute the church locally, globally and in heaven awaiting the resurrection who are seen and known only to God. The church of Matthew 16:18.
Thank you for your well wishing
HankD
Will you please read again the very statement you are quoting about my OP. Does it not say "physical human bodies"???? How is your response proof that 1 Cor. 6:15 does not include "physical human bodies"????? That is the challenge my friend, not what you have invented!
Instead, what you are trying to do is escape facing that text and its context and simply denying what that text says by PITTING another text against it and PITTING your personal interpretation against it. The challenge was to disprove that "physical human bodies" are not included by that text. You are attempting to change the subject which violates the rules that govern this forum.
Hank, the above is fine if you could explain how this "universal" or "unseen" church operates today.
Where does it meet?
Who makes up its earthly leadership? Pastors. Deacons. Etc.
Who administers the ordinances of Baptism and the Lord's Supper?
How does one pay tithes and offerings to this "universal" or "unseen" church?
In order to refer to the Family of God as "the universal church" you have to do extreme violence to the etymology and philology of the word "church" - εκκλησια, not to mention doing great harm to the doctrine of the primacy of the church as God's chosen method of reaching the world with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I believe in this "unseen" entity you propose but I do not diminish the word "church" to make it fit Romish doctrine.
I even believe there will be a universal church, assembled together, someday. That will be at "the meeting in the air" when all the redeemed will gather round the throne of God and worship Him.
But that day has not yet arrived. I am looking forward to that day. But until then, my loyalty and service will be in and through God's established program for this day, the local, New Testament, assembly of baptized believers meeting with the pastors and deacons and keeping the Great Commission and Great Commandment, and celebrating the ordinances of Baptism and the Lord's Supper.
At the risk of sounding like a certain "evangelist" who shall remain nameless, allow me to suggest the booklet "The Local Church of the New Testament" by Dr. R.V. Clearwaters, available online at http://www.centralseminary.edu/Resources/The Local Church of the New Testament.pdf
(In the interests of full disclosure, Dr. Clearwaters was President of the seminary I attended and my teacher and mentor. He is a graduate of Moody Bible Institute, Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Chicago (Th.B., B.D.), Kalamazoo College (B.A.), University of Chicago Divinity School where he earned an M.A. degree in 1933 under E.J. Goodspeed in New Testament Greek and a Ph.D. in Ancient Greek Literature (not confired).)
Again, one more time.
You opened this thread as a challenge to those of us who support the doctrine of a universal church with an oblique ad hominem that we are followers of Roman Catholic dogma.
I gave my definition of the term "universal church" in my defense as well as many others defense.
I feel no further need to continue except for the following
1 Corinthians 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
Yes this passage includes physical human bodies.
If you feel that I have violated the rules of the BB then petition the administrators to have my posts removed.
Thanks
HankD
Hank, the challenge in the OP had to do with the text being used.If you wanted to defend the universal invisible church based on some other basis then you could open a thread and do that. However, I chose the grounds for the challenge. I have opened up numerous threads to defend my view on a variety of different subjects but they are no part of this topic in this OP.
You have to admit that your arguments are not about the text of this OP or the explicit challenge I gave concerning physical human bodies being part "of Christ" as "members." My OP showed the foolishness of trying to interpret this text literally as literal physical bodies part of the literal physical Christ. The only possible option left is a figurative interpretation. The consistent use of "members" in the book of 1 Corinthians that are "of Christ" is the the "body of Christ" (not his literal body but a metaphorical non-literal body).
I understand your hesitancy for taking this challenge as the text if interpreted by sound hermeneutics demands the "body of Christ" in the book of First Corinthians must be something visible and local as that is the only possible kind that actual physical bodies can be part.
It meets wherever the Lord provides the locale and opportunity, local churches, houses, gymnasiums, in the heavenly places, many mansions, etc.
Jesus Christ is the LORD of His church wherever and whenever they meet whenever two or three meet the shepherd of their souls is there.
Those appointed by the Lord.
With Caesar's earthly gold or with God's gold tried in the fire.
In my father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you.
On Earth - present tense hearers of the gospel, in the heavenly mansions - past tense hearers of the gospel.
Neither do I who has had a virtually excommunication from the Catholic Church
OK.
I agree with the emboldened text.
I will look into the book.
HankD
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