The man who was previously disposed to drink copious amounts of alcohol, watch on-line pornography, now is disposed to go to church and live for God.
Yet not everyone who is born again may experience the blessing of the removal of drugs and alcohol in their lives as I did. Nor would I assume that no regenerate man could slip up and find himself getting stoned or high again.
He still has free will, but his desires have been changed. I do not believe that a man is able to refuse the new birth, any more than you or I could refuse our first birth.
I would suggest refusal of the New Birth is part and parcel of rejection of Christ. It is in that rejection that man exercises his inherent ability. But again, this follows the Ministry of the Comforter. Before that rejection, God has opened their understanding of truth. I can pinpoint the precise time of this ministry in my life, at least, when it came to a head. The reality of Hell and the remedy for that looming judgment had me terrified, shaking, and sweating. Ten men could not have kept me from going forward to ask God's forgiveness. Within that ministry was repentance, belief, faith (and I'm sure you're familiar with belief and faith's close ties).
The natural man will always refuse the Gospel (
1 Corinthians 2:14).
If that were true—no man would be saved. All are natural men. I was a natural man prior to receiving the truth. I do not consider myself to have been born again prior to repentance, belief, and faith. I still knew I had to come before God, and I did that.
I appreciate that. I have always found you to be a courteous opponent
And I you.
God does not repent for us, nor believe for us;
Agreed, but He does make it possible that we can. This is called a gift:
Acts 11:18
King James Version
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to
give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will
give them
repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
those things we must do in order to be saved (
Mark 1:15).
Which brings us back to this: why does a man join himself to Christ? Because he has made the decision? I would agree men do decide, truly, however, the ability to do so follows God's intervention. The conclusion I draw, then, is that the natural man, of his own will, ability, intellect, or anything else that be in the nature (or disposition) he is born with—can never be saved. He cannot understand the Gospel, he cannot know truth. And when I say know, I mean more in the sense of biblical knowledge. For example, we both know childbirth is painful, but we'll never know as women do.
But we only do them when God opens our heart to receive the Gospel (
Acts of the Apostles 16:14).
I agree with that, but then, I also believe He does this for those who reject. In order for men to be justly charged with rejecting the Gospel, it would mean they would actually have to understand it, right? This is why we seldom prosecute those who are mentally incapacitated for a crime. The natural man is in one sense, legally insane. This is why Hebrews 10:26-29 warns that those who reject the Gospel will be held to a higher standard of judgment: the ones that rejected Moses Law (the Covenant of Law) were not openly rejecting Christ as those who come under the Comforter's ministry do.
I am conscious of repeating the same proof texts that I have used time and again on this forum. I have no confidence that you will be convinced by them by me trotting them out one more time. I have no doubt at all that you are born of the Spirit, and we can be brothers in Christ while not agreeing on every point.
Agreed. And it's nice to have an actual discussion once in a while. That still happens from time to time on a Christian Doctrinal Discussion Forum, lol.
None at all.
Psalms 115:1.
Agreed.
@Van's position is neither Arminian nor Calvinist; it is his own concoction.
There are some unique aspects to be found, lol.
He believes that Christ has saved all men by His death upon the cross, but then God rejects many because their faith is not 'righteous.'
That is unfortunate.
This last quote ended up within quotes, so I will just copy and paste:
Me: So a final question: do you think natural man can understand the Gospel apart from God giving them the ability to understand?
You: It is not a question of 'ability.' It is a question of will (John 5:40; Psalms 110:3).
The will would require the ability. I would agree that unbelievers willfully reject the truth, because that is a natural response. In John 5, we are dealing within the framework of the Age of Law and the revelation men were provided with. In Luke 16 the Lord, in His teaching, makes it clear that the Law and the Prophets were sufficient to keep a man from everlasting torment. That is not precisely the case in our own age. The general acceptance of God has been replaced with specific faith in Christ (and His Work). Consider that no man in prior Ages had an ability to place specific faith in Christ. They had no ability. Nothing in their nature allowed for that to take place. So too, natural man has no ability to weigh in on something they are blind to. You, for example, have no ability to make an informed statement about the Plant Men on Planet Miraclegrow. Why? Because before now, you never heard of them (because I just made it up is another reason, lol).
And again, I think it important to make a distinction between the Ages and the revelation found within them. Abraham cannot be found in violation with the Covenant of Law, for example, because it wasn't established in his day. And like the teaching of good and evil men, we can see elements of the Gospel, there is a difference between veiled revelation and unveiled.
Okay, sorry for the length, and good luck with your fellowship. I am sure God has equipped you sufficiently for the tasks before you, and that you will not disappoint.
God bless.
