1 Corinthians 2:14 does not teach total inability

[Calminian]

Man in his natural state is without the Holy Spirit and in opposition to God. He cannot understand, he cannot accept or receive the things of God because he considers them foolishness. He is not merely an immature believer who needs milk. Even an immature believer has the Holy Spirit. Many followed Christ and were called disciples in the larger sense (not the 12 minus 1). But many of these did not believe because of their stony hearts. "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" said many disciples in John 6:60. And in verse 66 many of them "turned back and no longer followed him."

Think about the parables. Even the core group of disciples didn't know what he was talking about. Then went to Jesus after wards and had to have these parables explained to them. A lot of people falsely think that the parables that Jesus spoke made it easier for the common people to understand. No, quite the contrary. The privilege of understanding the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven was given to his immediate disciples --not the crowds. Jesus said that though they (the crowds) had eyes, they could not see. Though they had ears they couldn't hear. If they did have full use of those faculties they would have turned and been forgiven. But the Lord did not will that.

The question then is, can God change a man's natural state without saving him first? The Bible talks about drawing men to God. Does that drawing interfere with man's natural state? I would think it would have to. If it does, then the drawn man (whether he chooses to believe or not) is no longer left to himself and no longer a natural man. But he also is not a saved man until he places his faith in Christ.

This seems to go along with enlightenment verses also, like John 12:35-36.

John 12:35 Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. Whoever walks in the dark does not know where they are going. 36 Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”​

Jesus made it clear there were some who were walking in the light, who had still not believed, and needed to believe so they could become "sons of light."

I don't think Jesus considered these unbelievers "walking in the light" to be natural men, and I don't believe He considered them saved or regenerate either. They were recipients of grace, altered by that grace, enlightened by that grace, who were now being urged to believe.

 

[37818]

The thing is if man can't understand at least the gospel or the milk of the word then the natural man cannot believe and cannot be saved. So even if the Holy Spirit is working to save the man he still cannot be saved unless he is made to understand. Which is a load of man made bull. No where in scripture does it ever say man has to be saved in order to understand the gospel message. Therefore there is no total depravity. Paul even says that Gentiles will here it.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
I can only agree that man in his natural state is a sinner no doubt. Yet he can hear.
MB

How do you understand the parable of the sower? ". . Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. . . ." -- Matthew 13:13.

 

[37818]

Truth (John 17:17) has to be heard (2 Timothy 2:25) before it can be believed (Romans 10:17). (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) (Romans 1:16)

 

[Calminian]

The thing is if man can't understand at least the gospel or the milk of the word then the natural man cannot believe and cannot be saved. So even if the Holy Spirit is working to save the man he still cannot be saved unless he is made to understand. Which is a load of man made bull. No where in scripture does it ever say man has to be saved in order to understand the gospel message. Therefore there is no total depravity. Paul even says that Gentiles will here it.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
I can only agree that man in his natural state is a sinner no doubt. Yet he can hear.
MB

But this is only a problem for those who define natural man as unsaved man. Both you and calvinists do this.

You, therefore, deny what Scripture clearly says about the natural man, that he does not listen to spiritual truths (including the Gospel). They, on the other hand, deny the drawing of God and skip right to regeneration.

I guess I believe you're both wrong.

 

[MB]

Man in his natural state is without the Holy Spirit and in opposition to God. He cannot understand, he cannot accept or receive the things of God because he considers them foolishness. He is not merely an immature believer who needs milk. Even an immature believer has the Holy Spirit. Many followed Christ and were called disciples in the larger sense (not the 12 minus 1). But many of these did not believe because of their stony hearts. "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" said many disciples in John 6:60. And in verse 66 many of them "turned back and no longer followed him."

Maybe you're not taking into account of why it was a hard teaching. Drinking a mans blood and eating his flesh isn't very appealing.They just didn't listen to the whole of what Christ was speaking about. It's interesting why he spoke to them in parables. I believe the reason is that They could not be saved until after Christ had paid the ransom for them. None of them were saved yet. If Christ had spoken to them plainly they would have heard and understood. what He was saying. Simply it wasn't time for them to be saved. This means no one could be saved until Christ Paid the atonement. In fact Christ even told the disciples why He spoke to them in parables

Think about the parables. Even the core group of disciples didn't know what he was talking about. Then went to Jesus after wards and had to have these parables explained to them. A lot of people falsely think that the parables that Jesus spoke made it easier for the common people to understand. No, quite the contrary. The privilege of understanding the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven was given to his immediate disciples --not the crowds. Jesus said that though they (the crowds) had eyes, they could not see. Though they had ears they couldn't hear. If they did have full use of those faculties they would have turned and been forgiven. But the Lord did not will that.

We agree in part in this last paragraph. There is no forgiveness of sin with out blood sacrifice and it had to be the blood of Christ. The blood of bull's and goats don't do the job.. I cannot believe anyone was saved before the sacrifice of Christ on the cross simply because this is why He had to die for our sins or else we all would be in Hell. If we could have been forgiven and saved before Christ paying the penalty for our sins there would have been no need for our Lord to die.
MB

 

[MB]

But this is only a problem for those who define natural man as unsaved man. Both you and calvinists do this.

You, therefore, deny what Scripture clearly says about the natural man, that he does not listen to spiritual truths (including the Gospel). They, on the other hand, deny the drawing of God and skip right to regeneration.

I guess I believe you're both wrong.

You are wrong I do not deny what scripture says about the natural man. It's just that it does not say that man is incapable of hearing the gospel. !st Cor 2:14. It says he does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. And since the chapter is about the deep things of God. He is say\ing the man does not receive. We all start out on milk. None of us jump straight to the meat of the word. There are many Christians who do not understand the deep things of God
All of the things written in Romans 3:10-20 is what I thought Christians were before I was saved. Yet Calvinist seem to think this is the condition of the natural man. When actually the Quote Paul made there in Romans was originally said by a fool who first said there is no God. Men know by instinct there is a God and is why there are so many false God's. They didn't have the Gospel to guide them.
MB

 

[MB]

How do you understand the parable of the sower? ". . Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. . . ." -- Matthew 13:13.

Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Mar 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
Mar 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
MB

 

[Rippon2]

If we could have been forgiven and saved before Christ paying the penalty for our sins there would have been no need for our Lord to die.
MB

How can you ignore so may passages in the Gospels when Jesus plainly said "Your Sins are forgiven."

The word forgive occurs 41 times in the Gospels.
The word forgiven occurs 23 times.

 

[37818]

Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Mar 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
Mar 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
MB

What Jesus tought. Matthew and Luke include a few more details as what Jesus said. How do you understand it, that the hearing of the word by the two of the three in contrast to the good ground?

 

[MB]

How can you ignore so may passages in the Gospels when Jesus plainly said "Your Sins are forgiven."

The word forgive occurs 41 times in the Gospels.
The word forgiven occurs 23 times.

Forgive me I misspoke.
MB

 

[MB]

What Jesus tought. Matthew and Luke include a few more details as what Jesus said. How do you understand it, that the hearing of the word by the two of the three in contrast to the good ground?

I just showed you. I understand the way Christ explained it
The seed by the way side never sprung up
The seed that fell on stony ground had no root so the seed never came up. you can't live with out the root
The seed that fell among the weeds and tares. . I can't say for sure they were lost yet they were unfruitful. Does that mean they were lost because they had no fruit. I look at the thief on the cross next to our Lord. He had no fruits and he went to paradise with Christ.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

Not all natural men are lost but all lost men are natural.

 

[Rippon2]

Not all natural men are lost but all lost men are natural.

The natural man is a lost man. The lost man is a natural man.

 

[Calminian]

You are wrong I do not deny what scripture says about the natural man.

Sorry, but that is exactly what is says.

1Cor. 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

You're arguing that the natural man does receive the things of the Spirit. So if you continue to agree with calvinists that natural man means unsaved man, they have you cornered. You don't have a leg to stand on.

I'm not cornered, because I don't take the stance you take. Natural is merely one left to himself—one who has not been illuminated the grace of God, or drawn by God.

This enlightenment (which is definitely not natural) is something that occurs before faith and must be responded to in faith. More importantly, this is comparable with texts like 1Cor. 2:14.

 

[Calminian]

Not all natural men are lost but all lost men are natural.

Same mistake MB is making. I would suggest that all natural men are indeed lost. Otherwise 1Cor. 2:14 makes no sense.

That said, not all the lost are natural, particularly those God has enlightened and is drawing to himself. I would not go as far as the calvinist and call them regenerate. That's because Scripture seems to suggest that one can be enlightened and still fall away (Her. 6:4), and I don't believe a regenerate man can lose his salvation. This, therefore, suggests there is a state in which man has received grace and illumination, but must then respond with faith to become regenerate and saved.

 

[Revmitchell]

Same mistake MB is making. I would suggest that all natural men are indeed lost. Otherwise 1Cor. 2:14 makes no sense.

It makes complete sense.

 

[Calminian]

It makes complete sense.

It does. And it contradicts your claim.

 

[Revmitchell]

It does. And it contradicts your claim.

No....no it doesnt. You have to remember, this is all reference to the misbehavior of believers in chapter 1

 

[Rippon2]

No....no it doesnt. You have to remember, this is all reference to the misbehavior of believers in chapter 1

One without the Spirit of God is not a believer. You need spiritual discernment because you don't have the ability to distinguish things. The person in 2:14 is unsaved. The person in 2:15 is a believer, possessing the Holy Spirit. Those in the category of 1:18 link up perfectly with that of the person in 2:14. In chapter three it deals with those who are spiritually immature. But they are indeed people in which God's Spirit indwells. (See 3:16)

You have to read the context carefully or you will miss out on what to the rest of us is clear. It is plain as day, but your spiritual eyes are fogged up.

 

[37818]

1 Corinthians 2:14, ". . . the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, . . ."
1 Corinthians 1:18, ". . . For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; . . ."