1 Corinthians 2:14 does not teach total inability

[Calminian]

No....no it doesnt. You have to remember, this is all reference to the misbehavior of believers in chapter 1

I don't see that in the context, that natural men are merely misbehaving believers. Of believers Paul said,

Rom. 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.​

The natural man designation is someone who cannot hear the things of God and considers them foolish, and Paul is clear the believer cannot be this man. "You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you."

The natural mans considers the things of God "foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Those who have the Spirit, according to Paul, cannot be in the realm of the flesh like this. They are in the realm of the Spirit. Natural or unspiritual is definitely not a believing term.

James 3:15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.

Jude 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.​

 

[Rippon2]

1 Corinthians 2:14, ". . . the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, . . ."
1 Corinthians 1:18, ". . . For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; . . ."

That's what I have attempted to lay before him, but it either goes WOOSH over his head, or he has a stubborn nature that will not allow him to admit he has been clearly in the wrong.

 

[MB]

Sorry, but that is exactly what is says.

1Cor. 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

You're arguing that the natural man does receive the things of the Spirit. So if you continue to agree with calvinists that natural man means unsaved man, they have you cornered. You don't have a leg to stand on.

I'm not cornered, because I don't take the stance you take. Natural is merely one left to himself—one who has not been illuminated the grace of God, or drawn by God.

This enlightenment (which is definitely not natural) is something that occurs before faith and must be responded to in faith. More importantly, this is comparable with texts like 1Cor. 2:14.

You still think man is unable to know the gospel. Then why would Christ draw all men.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
I admit that man does not come to Christ unless he is drawn. But you like the Calvinist deny the verse above when you claim man is unable. Don't you get it Christ draws all men. If all men are drawn then all men can come to Christ. This means there is no inability, because of;
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The fact remains Jesus is God because God is in Him. You remember what Jesus said when Phillip asked Him to show them the Father. Why do you ignore Jn 12:32 Why do Calvinist dislike this verse so much they try to change what it clearly says?
MB

 

[Calminian]

You still think man is unable to know the gospel. ...

Not true. I believe man is able to know the Gospel. I just don't think the natural man, in his natural unspiritual state, is able to know the Gospel or receive it. He has to be changed first, in some way.

Only Pelagians deny this. Full pelagians believe Adam's descendants were not affected by the fall in any way. Semipelagians believe men can come to God as they are, yet with great difficulty. Both ideas have been debunked over the centuries, though I see they're making comeback.

 

[MB]

Not true. I believe man is able to know the Gospel. I just don't think the natural man, in his natural unspiritual state, is able to know the Gospel or receive it. He has to be changed first, in some way.

Only Pelagians deny this. Full pelagians believe Adam's descendants were not affected by the fall in any way. Semipelagians believe men can come to God as they are, yet with great difficulty. Both ideas have been debunked over the centuries, though I see they're making comeback.

You ignored why does Christ draw all men?
MB

 

[Calminian]

You ignored why does Christ draw all men?
MB

Why would I do that? I believe Christ draws all men.

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't see that in the context, that natural men are merely misbehaving believers. Of believers Paul said,

Rom. 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.​

The natural man designation is someone who cannot hear the things of God and considers them foolish, and Paul is clear the believer cannot be this man. "You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you."

The natural mans considers the things of God "foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Those who have the Spirit, according to Paul, cannot be in the realm of the flesh like this. They are in the realm of the Spirit. Natural or unspiritual is definitely not a believing term.

James 3:15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.

Jude 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.​

Then you need to read the issue Paul was correcting in chapter 1

 

[37818]

That's what I have attempted to lay before him, but it either goes WOOSH over his head, or he has a stubborn nature that will not allow him to admit he has been clearly in the wrong.

The problem would seem to be not being able to separate the plain reading of the translation from one's personal interpretation. I do not know how else to say it.

 

[37818]

Then you need to read the issue Paul was correcting in chapter 1

1 Corinthians 1:18, ". . . For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; . . ."

 

[Calminian]

Then you need to read the issue Paul was correcting in chapter 1

And ignore a plain text and its immediate context? You work your way outward when trying to understand a passages, especially when it's so clear.

Who are those that think the messages of the Spirit are foolishness? If you think that's believers, you're ignoring a plethora of Paul's writings.

 

[Revmitchell]

And ignore a plain text and its immediate context? You work your way outward when trying to understand a passages, especially when it's so clear.

Who are those that think the messages of the Spirit are foolishness? If you think that's believers, you're ignoring a plethora of Paul's writings.

All of that is in response to what Paul was correcting in Chapter 1. That is the context.

 

[Revmitchell]

1 Corinthians 1:18, ". . . For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; . . ."

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.

 

[Rippon2]

MB and Mitch must believe in some type of Universalism. Because of Christ draws all of humanity to Himself, before and after the cross --why are so many in eternal torment? Why have so many died with no repentance and no forgiveness of sin? Christ meant that people from among all nations, tribes and languages would be drawn to Him. ---Not every single person or else what do you do with Judas who was doomed to perdition?

In John 6:44 it is evident that all who are drawn will be raised up. That means the elect --the ones the Lord selected before time began.

 

[Calminian]

All of that is in response to what Paul was correcting in Chapter 1. That is the context.

And it contradicts your claim that the natural man is a believer. Along with several other passages.

We're merely pointing out that the text and its immediate context is explicit.

 

[Calminian]

MB and Mitch must believe in some type of Universalism. Because of Christ draws all of humanity to Himself, before and after the cross --why are so many in eternal torment? .....

They're not advocating universalism. If you believe God's drawing is efficacious, of course you'll also have to believe in a limited drawing. If God's drawing can be resisted, it's a moot point.

 

[Rippon2]

They're not advocating universalism. If you believe God's drawing is efficacious, of course you'll also have to believe in a limited drawing. If God's drawing can be resisted, it's a moot point.

I said, they must believe in "some type of Universalism."

If one believes that God's drawing can be resisted, then He is not the Mighty God of the Scriptures.

 

[Calminian]

I said, they must believe in "some type of Universalism."

If one believes that God's drawing can be resisted, then He is not the Mighty God of the Scriptures.

Well the Apostle Stephen disagrees with you.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!​

But in fairness, he didn't have access to the theology books we have today.

 

[Revmitchell]

And it contradicts your claim that the natural man is a believer. Along with several other passages.

We're merely pointing out that the text and its immediate context is explicit.

No it doesnt but you have yet to.point out why you think it does

 

[Calminian]

No it doesnt but you have yet to.point out why you think it does

I actually have heard you make a point yet, ironically. I'm guessing if you had an argument you would have made one made now.

 

[Revmitchell]

I actually have heard you make a point yet, ironically. I'm guessing if you had an argument you would have made one made now.

Im not going to get into a pissing contest with you if that is what your looking for. If you want to discuss it ill be glad to. And yes, i have made my point clear repeatedly.