+1 for Calvinism?

Sir, I was not addressing you at all & further more, your use of Scripture out of its context shows that you are very off from the right. You have misjudged the spirit in which I wrote to this individual & I guess from the Scriptures I have quoted that you fill that Paul has the blood of everyone who reads Romans chapter 9 on his head. You should never class people just because of your bad experiences with others as being prideful. the fonts were big because of the Bible programme I used to copy & paste the Scriptures. Be careful that you do not judge others or even get tangled in the same mess you accuse others of doing.

 

He's drawing soteriological conclusions from scripture. You're drawing conclusions about his character based on text formatting.

I know which makes a stronger case.

 

Thanks! You said it!

 

Quote:Jeep Dragon - Just an thought of mine, but is it possible to dogmatically claim that anyone in the Bible went to heaven or hell unless the Bible specifically says such?

I understand where you are coming from. But I believe that the context is clear that Pharaoh is an example of a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction in contrast to those afore prepared unto glory. Hope that lets you see why I said he went to hell.

 

No, I'm drawing conclusions according to scripture and how he appears to beat people over the head with Bible quotes instead of just talking to them. I mean, what's the point of replying like he does? Is it to win the person over, or is it “Hey! Look at me! I know the Bible!”?

 

Actually it is neither, - It is just "hey look at me!"

 

From the Wikipedia

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument against the person") involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself. It is a logical fallacy.

 

Hope of Jesus

The answer is that if they leave from us shows us their going they were never apart of us. We are to reach the world and hold those who believe even closer.

When I see that they are influenced by this man-made doctrine, I can see why he sees those scripture the way He sees them.

When you look at scripture through the eyes of God loving the world that He sent His Son, you see it in a total different perspective.

As long as I lift up Jesus for the hope for the world, not some man-made doctrine, who can come against me? I will not let their unbelief bring doubt in my savior for any thing.

Do not doubt but believe, Jesus tells me..

It is those who abide in Jesus that is predestined to be saved, we have not been predestined to abide. It those who endure to the end that shall be saved, If we disown Jesus He will disown us.
The hope did not come to the world until Jesus was lifted up and when the Father and Son sent back the Holy Spirit.

The only one who was created for honor was Jesus, so all others must hold on to Him our only hope.

Which one of you is bold enough to say they were created in honor?

Who cares that God harden the heart of Pharaoh. Who God foreknew would never believe, for him to have no pleasure in the wickedness he was doing.

Lets give back the hope of Jesus to the world

 

Right on. Seems they both have a problem judging people rather than Scripture!

 

I never attacked you at all trying to bring you down & raise myself up. I just showed you a Scriptural interpretation & your buddy judged me & you have done the same thing. It seems more important to you both to assassinate character than look at Scripture. A classic evasion of the subject matter.

 

I see what you are trying to say. Similar views have been brought out on the subject. I heard a man preach that the apostles were sovereignly saved, but everyone else fits into the "whosoever will" category. But I believe the text cited can be viewed in light of the fact that the "us ward" points to those who Peter addressed, namely "the elect". I believe this can be applied because in 2 Thess 2. It says that God sends a strong delusion to others that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned. That tells me that there are some that God does not will to save, but wills to damn.

 

Before the foundation of the world

Before the foundation of the world, God has decided to save believers.

We cannot not limit God's word to say world, is limited to save elect, or that He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, and limit that to the elect.

Jesus has opened the door to all men, and even the very elect of God will be cut out for unbelief, our hope is in Jesus.

As the scripture says' now.

Hebrews 3
Warning Against Unbelief

7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11 ]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8 ]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved ]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

 

We do not have to limit Gods word of salvation to the elect. God has done so. The Scripture you reference about being cut off is speaking about self righteous gentiles being proud & obviously empty of grace. This is not a description of God's elect. The reference in Heb. 3 is answered in ch. 4 showing that those who died in the wilderness heard the gospel, but it did not profit them because of unbelief. This is not a description of true believers. Christ said they will NEVER perish. It is clear from Rom. 9:6 - 8 That just because those that perish are mingled in with God's elect, only the children of promise will be saved. Isaac is a type of salvation being ALL of God. When Abraham had done all he could & failed, he was forced to the position that unless God moved he could not have Isaac. Gods grace removes all human ability & gives all glory to God. It was not till Jonah got in the belly of the well with no hope of getting out that he said "SALVATION IS OF THE LORD"
.....For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

scripture

The scripture i gave you, if you see them through the eyes of God loving the word that He sent His Son you will see them as I do, but as long as you see them through man made doctrine you will never see them no different.

It was the Jews that God chose from the beginning His elect that God cut for unbelief.

Your hope is Jesus not your election for the very elect will be cut out for unbelief.

So as a gentile you must continue in the faith God has given you though His word or you will also be cut out.

If God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare you either.

If the unbelieving Jews do not continue in thier unbelief He will graft them in again.

You see they were cut out for unbelief.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. As his children our believers who enter into the new covenant, not the elect, because they were cut out for unbelief. We are not elected to believe, but believers are elected to salvation. We are given our belief and our faith through the word of God, it is our choice to accept them ae not.

Your hope is not election but in Jesus, continue in that belief.

 

I'll agree that my hope is in Jesus, but without God's election, I would not be in Jesus. Eph. 1:4. There is no way you are elected because you believe considering the elect were chosen (elected) before the foundation of the world, before they believed.

 

Belief

We have the truth.

Who was Paul speaking to in His letters, believers right.

So who has He before the foundation of the world decided to save. It is believers.

It is not in the chosen that we are saved, but belief in the only one who can save us.

The Jews was not cut out because they were not chosen, but as the scripture says for unbelief.

So as a gentile do not be arragont but afraid, if God did not spare the natural branches He will not Spare you either.

As the Jewish elect, if you do not continue in your unbelief He graft you in again.

We as gentiles are included with the believing Jews, when we heard the gospel of our salvation having believed.

Jesus taught, God loved the world that He sent His son, that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved, and God want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

This world hope is Jesus not election for even the very elect will be cut out for unbelief.

Just come to Jesus, don't let these men give you excuses not to come, and Jesus will no wise cast you out.

Men from the beginning wanted to blame God. First it was the snake you created, it was the women you gave me, today it is because God didn't chose me, but you cannot because God as given all men, the world a hope through Jesus.

You can trust in Jesus to do what He says He will do.