Considering the fact that God must give a man the faith to believe on Christ, your argument for God choosing to save believers is gone! As I said before, you have no concept of what you are talking about when you say the elect can perish so there is no further need of me kicking a dead horse about this issue until you put away your idea of election having nothing to do with salvation.psalms109:31 said:
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
+1 for Calvinism?
- Thread starter Jeep Dragon
- Start date
jne1611 said:
The term "elect" only means "chosen." Context determines whether it means "the nation of Israel," "the believers," or "sanctified for a task" as I have mentioned earlier. We must all be careful not to limit the meaning of generic terms. Every time a certain word is mentioned in a verse, before one jumps to conclusions about it fitting into any doctrine, one must read the context of the whole chapter or better yet, the whole book since chapter and verse markers are not inspired.
I Think You All Need Some A.W.P. Doses
This is from his work on : " The Doctrine Of Election " . The chapter is entitled " Its Publication " . These are some excerpts .
Moreover the Gospel is to be preached " to every creature ," that is , to all who frequent the Christian ministry , whether Jew or Gentile , young or old , rich or poor . All who wait upon the ministrations of God's servants have a right to hear the gospel fully and clearly , without any part of it being kept back . Now an important part of the gospel is the doctrine of election : God's eternal , free , and irreversible choice of certain persons in Christ to everlasting life . God foreknew that if the success of the preaching of Christ crucified were left contingent upon the response made to it by fallen men , there would be a universal despising of the same . This is clear from , " They all with one consent began to make excuse " ( Luke 14:18 ) . Therefore did God determine that a remnant of Adam's children should be the eternal monuments of His mercy , and accordingly He decreed to bestow upon them a saving faith and repentance . That is good news , indeed : all rendered certain and immutable by the sovereign will of God . ( p.170 )
There are thousands of Arminian evangelists in Christendom today who deny predestination , either directly or indirectly , and yet suppose they are magnifying divine grace . Their idea is that God , out of His great goodness and love , has provided salvation in Christ for the whole human family , and that such is what He now desires and seeks . It is the view of these men that God makes an offer of His saving grace through the gospel message , makes it to the freewill of all who hear it , and that they can either accept or refuse it . But that is not "grace" at all . ( p.171)
This is not an incidental or secondary truth , but one of fundamental importance and therefore it is not to be crowded into a corner , nor spoken of with baited breath . Predestination lies at the very foundation of the entire scheme of divine grace . This is clear from Romans 8:30 , where it is mentioned before effectual calling , justification , and glorification . It is clear again from the order followed in Ephesians 1 , where election (v.4) precedes adoption , our acceptance in the Beloved , and our having redemption through His blood (vv.5-7) . The minister must , therefore , make it clear to his hearers that God first chose a people to be His peculiar treasure , then sent His Son to redeem them from the curse of the broken law , and now gives the Spirit to quicken them and bring them to everlasting glory . (p. 180 )
This is from his work on : " The Doctrine Of Election " . The chapter is entitled " Its Publication " . These are some excerpts .
Moreover the Gospel is to be preached " to every creature ," that is , to all who frequent the Christian ministry , whether Jew or Gentile , young or old , rich or poor . All who wait upon the ministrations of God's servants have a right to hear the gospel fully and clearly , without any part of it being kept back . Now an important part of the gospel is the doctrine of election : God's eternal , free , and irreversible choice of certain persons in Christ to everlasting life . God foreknew that if the success of the preaching of Christ crucified were left contingent upon the response made to it by fallen men , there would be a universal despising of the same . This is clear from , " They all with one consent began to make excuse " ( Luke 14:18 ) . Therefore did God determine that a remnant of Adam's children should be the eternal monuments of His mercy , and accordingly He decreed to bestow upon them a saving faith and repentance . That is good news , indeed : all rendered certain and immutable by the sovereign will of God . ( p.170 )
There are thousands of Arminian evangelists in Christendom today who deny predestination , either directly or indirectly , and yet suppose they are magnifying divine grace . Their idea is that God , out of His great goodness and love , has provided salvation in Christ for the whole human family , and that such is what He now desires and seeks . It is the view of these men that God makes an offer of His saving grace through the gospel message , makes it to the freewill of all who hear it , and that they can either accept or refuse it . But that is not "grace" at all . ( p.171)
This is not an incidental or secondary truth , but one of fundamental importance and therefore it is not to be crowded into a corner , nor spoken of with baited breath . Predestination lies at the very foundation of the entire scheme of divine grace . This is clear from Romans 8:30 , where it is mentioned before effectual calling , justification , and glorification . It is clear again from the order followed in Ephesians 1 , where election (v.4) precedes adoption , our acceptance in the Beloved , and our having redemption through His blood (vv.5-7) . The minister must , therefore , make it clear to his hearers that God first chose a people to be His peculiar treasure , then sent His Son to redeem them from the curse of the broken law , and now gives the Spirit to quicken them and bring them to everlasting glory . (p. 180 )
psalms109:31
Active Member
Berlieve in Jesus
Our faith, and belief in many things our given to us by other people who witnessed, but it is our choice to still believe in it or not.
It is true God has given to us what to believe and our faith by His word, but it is still our choice to believe it it or not.
Anything free or not, you have to accept it to receive it in order to receive it. Just because you accepted it, you can never say , just because you have accepted, that your hands made it.
God has opened the door to all men through Jesus Christ and made us the messenger of it.
God loved the wotrld that He sent His Son, and He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
We enter into predestenation to salvation through belief in Jesus, because of God's word that you can believe in, that whosoever believs in Jesus will be saved.
If you disown Jesus, He will disown you.
You must endure to the end to be saved.
Keep your faith in Jesus not in election, for even the very elect of God will be cut out for unbelief.
Your hope is in Jesus.
People have chosen themselves and called themselves the elect of God, but i tell you that truth, trust in Jesus not in men
Our faith, and belief in many things our given to us by other people who witnessed, but it is our choice to still believe in it or not.
It is true God has given to us what to believe and our faith by His word, but it is still our choice to believe it it or not.
Anything free or not, you have to accept it to receive it in order to receive it. Just because you accepted it, you can never say , just because you have accepted, that your hands made it.
God has opened the door to all men through Jesus Christ and made us the messenger of it.
God loved the wotrld that He sent His Son, and He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
We enter into predestenation to salvation through belief in Jesus, because of God's word that you can believe in, that whosoever believs in Jesus will be saved.
If you disown Jesus, He will disown you.
You must endure to the end to be saved.
Keep your faith in Jesus not in election, for even the very elect of God will be cut out for unbelief.
Your hope is in Jesus.
People have chosen themselves and called themselves the elect of God, but i tell you that truth, trust in Jesus not in men
Last edited by a moderator:
psalms109:31
Active Member
Scripture
You can say what you want about me, but Jesus gaurantes to me that if I believe I will be saved, and If i endure to the end I will be saved.
I have been predestined by the words of Jesus to be saved.
Before the foundation of the world, God predestined believers to be saved.
We are not cut out for not being chosen, we are cut out for unbelief, and we can be graften in if we do not continue in our unbelief
God loves the world that He sent Jesus, and God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Trust in Jesus not men, and as long as you abide in Him, He will never cast you out.
You can say what you want about me, but Jesus gaurantes to me that if I believe I will be saved, and If i endure to the end I will be saved.
I have been predestined by the words of Jesus to be saved.
Before the foundation of the world, God predestined believers to be saved.
We are not cut out for not being chosen, we are cut out for unbelief, and we can be graften in if we do not continue in our unbelief
God loves the world that He sent Jesus, and God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Trust in Jesus not men, and as long as you abide in Him, He will never cast you out.
Last edited by a moderator:
I think you need to educate yourself in the doctrine of Scripture rather than made up scripture that fit your ideas. Nowhere do you find a verse in the New Testament as touching the election of grace that the elect can be cut off. Nowhere do you find that God elects you when He calls you. Give me a Scripture that says such. Give me the Scripture that states that God chose you before the foundation of the world because He knew you would believe.psalms109:31 said:
psalms109:31 said:
Where does this idea come from? Anything that tries to add to the free gift of salvation does not make it free. Once one receives a gift, it is his. He does not have to spend his whole life tring to keep it. How does one lay up for himself treasures in heaven if he has to hope to get there? If you're thinking of :
Although the word "saved" is always the same greek word. It means "deliver" or "protect." Context must determine what the word means.
I have heard of three "steps" in the salvation process:
1. Salvation: saved from the punishment of sin
2. Sanctification: saved from the power of sin
3. Separation: saved from the presence of sin
Although this cannot be proven with verses, it makes logical sense.
Why would Paul ask such a question if hell threatened believers who live in sin. Dead to sin means that sin cannot condemn.
This sounds like Paul is talking to believers and gives them guidelines to function properly. A believer can quench the Holy Spirit.
One should not derive a whole doctrine from the one verse to mean that we must endure to the end in order to be saved. The context of that verse clearly means saved from the oppression. When life is over, the believer is saved from the presence of sin.
One cannot also derive the baptismal regeneration doctrine from the one passage:
...to mean that one must observe the ordance of baptism in order to be saved. Since baptism was a command of God, in order to have remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost, Peter answers their question with the best answer.
I'll agree with you on this point for sure. When one trusts themselves to keep themselves saved, I don't know how they sleep at night. Jeep I want you to know that we may differ on election, but I count you my brother if you have put all your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, as do I any of the others of like precious faith. If we disagree on anything, I study the subject more as I hope we all will do.Jeep Dragon said:
psalms109:31
Active Member
scrpture
My salvation is depended on Jesus not election, I will trust Jesus will save me just as He says, if I believe in Him He will save me.
This faith without deeds is dead.
Untill you believe God loved the world , you will never understand any scripture God has given to you.
Romans 11:9You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11 ]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8 ]
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved ]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Don't let these men hinder you, they have the key of knowledge.
They have not entered and they are hindering you from entering.
You can come in, it is open to the world through Jesus. Jesus will no wise cast you out. So just come to Him and He will save you.
My salvation is depended on Jesus not election, I will trust Jesus will save me just as He says, if I believe in Him He will save me.
This faith without deeds is dead.
Untill you believe God loved the world , you will never understand any scripture God has given to you.
Romans 11:9You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11 ]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8 ]
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved ]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Don't let these men hinder you, they have the key of knowledge.
They have not entered and they are hindering you from entering.
You can come in, it is open to the world through Jesus. Jesus will no wise cast you out. So just come to Him and He will save you.
Last edited by a moderator:
Your hope is that you can hold on long enough to go to heaven, not that Jesus is your full salvation! Your obsessed with the thought that you can lose the salvation that you attribute to Him. If you keep it, then you save yourself. If He keeps it then he saves you. I trust myself to Him & put no confidence in the flesh!psalms109:31 said:
The Bible is full if different points of view. Some verses is simple context clearly show that men make a choice to serve God. Some verses clearly show that God draws people to Him and even controls people's hearts. Maybe we don't understand how this could work, but maybe God is sovereign and man has a free-will. Maybe words are put in the Bible because God wants to convey a message to us. Maybe the reason why people argue is that they take several verses that exclaim a certain point of view and filter the rest of the Bible through a philosophy.
Sometimes, we can't know everything about Scripture. Maybe somehow absolute Sovereignty and free-will can co-exist. Maybe our limited mind cannot fathom the real definition of Sovereignty or free-will. It could be our limited understanding of what these mean that makes us believe that one cannot co-exist with the other. What say ye...?
Can such a verse be more plain as this? God draws people to Him. ALL the the Father draws to Himself WILL come. Those that come, God will NOT cast out. This verse reaks of Calvinism!
This sounds like it reaks free-will except for the end which shows that all people did not believe because of Isaiah's prophecy. That sounds a little Calvinistic but could be interpreted as just foreknowledge. If God's knows that someone will never accept Him, He can prophecy their destiny right to their face and they will still not believe.
Sometimes, we can't know everything about Scripture. Maybe somehow absolute Sovereignty and free-will can co-exist. Maybe our limited mind cannot fathom the real definition of Sovereignty or free-will. It could be our limited understanding of what these mean that makes us believe that one cannot co-exist with the other. What say ye...?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Trust
I am telling you what the scripture says.
Your hope is in Jesus my friend, not in the words of men.
You must endure to the end to be saved.
If you disown Jesus He will disown you..
They were cut out for unbelief, not because they were not chosen.
God has chosen all of Israel and it was them that harden thier heart and turned away from God.
All these teachers like any men, thier teaching is incomplete, the whole understanding of God is in every word that comes from the mouth of God.
You cannot pick which scripture you want to believe in and which one's you don't.
God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Jesus not election is the only guarentee found in scripture for salvation.
All scripture points to Jesus for salvation, not election.
Jesus was sent into the world to save it not to condemn it and we who believe are messengers of it.
I am telling you what the scripture says.
Your hope is in Jesus my friend, not in the words of men.
You must endure to the end to be saved.
If you disown Jesus He will disown you..
They were cut out for unbelief, not because they were not chosen.
God has chosen all of Israel and it was them that harden thier heart and turned away from God.
All these teachers like any men, thier teaching is incomplete, the whole understanding of God is in every word that comes from the mouth of God.
You cannot pick which scripture you want to believe in and which one's you don't.
God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Jesus not election is the only guarentee found in scripture for salvation.
All scripture points to Jesus for salvation, not election.
Jesus was sent into the world to save it not to condemn it and we who believe are messengers of it.
Last edited by a moderator:
As I have already stated to you. It is God's choice of us in Christ that makes certain that we are saved. That is why we believe in Christ, we are elected! The word elect means chosen! And Scripture says we who are saved were chosen (elected) in Him (Christ) before the foundation of the world!psalms109:31 said:
By points of view I did not mean contradicting points of view. I meant different focuses. Like Jesus focusing in the Sovereignty of God because in His eyes that is how He looks at mankind. He controls them. No one can do anything outside the bounds of His sovereignty. Most of Moses' and Joshua's point of view was on the choices of Israel because that is how they looked at things. Maybe neither one is incorrect, just more emphasis on how they view such.
Maybe both exists in such a way that none of us can understand. Maybe the lack of understanding is what humbles us. Maybe we haven't a clue as to what God's sovereignty really is. Maybe we haven't a clue how a concept of free-will can co-exist with an all-sovereign God. The Bible does not seem to directly support or shun either views, but rather focuses on one or the other depending on what point it is getting across.
As for me, I am clueless. I stand baffled. All I can say is that God chose me and I chose Him. We love Him because He first loved us. With the conscience and understanding that He has given me, I will trust Him.
Watching people on all sides of the issue on this board for a while has put me at a crossroads of confusion. I remain at the crossroads with nothing but faith in the mysteries of God.
Maybe both exists in such a way that none of us can understand. Maybe the lack of understanding is what humbles us. Maybe we haven't a clue as to what God's sovereignty really is. Maybe we haven't a clue how a concept of free-will can co-exist with an all-sovereign God. The Bible does not seem to directly support or shun either views, but rather focuses on one or the other depending on what point it is getting across.
As for me, I am clueless. I stand baffled. All I can say is that God chose me and I chose Him. We love Him because He first loved us. With the conscience and understanding that He has given me, I will trust Him.
Watching people on all sides of the issue on this board for a while has put me at a crossroads of confusion. I remain at the crossroads with nothing but faith in the mysteries of God.