1 Tim 3:3 Corrupted in the modern versions?

[InTheLight]

Wrong. No mention of my street Evangelism.

Any mention of Mike's Hard Lemonade?

 

[Van]

Not sure, RSR, what your point is? Baptists believe we should avoid alcohol based on the reason I provided. Some Baptists take it further, but those arguments cannot really be supported from scripture. You have not taken a position, other than to find fault with my view. We should try to edify, rather than grumble. If you disagree with the view I presented as the orthodox view, present your alternate view.

 

[evangelist6589]

Not sure, RSR, what your point is? Baptists believe we should avoid alcohol based on the reason I provided. Some Baptists take it further, but those arguments cannot really be supported from scripture. You have not taken a position, other than to find fault with my view. We should try to edify, rather than grumble. If you disagree with the view I presented as the orthodox view, present your alternate view.

No argument can be made from scripture alone to abstain from alcohol.

 

[evangelist6589]

Any mention of Mike's Hard Lemonade?

Nope

 

[Billx]

KJV- Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

NIV- Not given to drunkenness....
ESV- Not a drunkard....

Then this guy on FB says this.

ESV/NIV, as all modern translations, are based on what is known as the "Westcort/Hort" revised text, based primarily on the "Aleph" MMS, which is the oldest and worst MS. It was found in a trash can, being used to start fires! Suggest you read Dean Burgon's arguments against W/H and the "Aleph" text/MS. W/H were Satanists! I never use/consult or read any of the modern version based on W/H, except to show where they are wrong. After working with W/H on the Revision Committee, Dean Burgon resigned because he saw what they were doing to the Bible.

Is this accurate? Basically he is saying you cant trust the NIV/ESV. I do not believe him as these are my 2 best translations. Or is this guy a type of KJVO?

 

[Billx]

Not given to ... not give to ... would imply governed to ... and there several things which follow, that is gambling, I'll gotten gains. In this case wine is included in the intemperate activity list I am partial to the nkjv and shares much with Old KJV Here they agree possibly because both use part of the Byzantine text. The nkjv uses the Byzantine as a primary text which relegates Wescott and Hort to secondary text. Reciently I have been reading much from the NIV. From gossip. As of yet I find no real doctrinal errors. When I need a gold standard for translation I look to the AV 1901.

For the NIV it helps to get William Mounce Greek-interlinear. His father was one of my professors. It will parse and define each word in language I can understand. I recommend. I did have to get the exhaustive concordance.

As far as wine is concerned, let's not over interpret our bias. Drunkenness is condemned universally. I really do not want to become a drunk and I leave the stuff alone. Recommend others do the same. Can I say wine is verbotten? Can I claim one who drinks a bit is anathema? I do not think the writ give me that super power.

My humble opinion

 

[Billx]

A Southern Baptist Convention resolution does not establish "orthodoxy." Besides, that resolution does not reflect the position you offered. The resolution says nothing about causing someone to stumble; it's a pure "drinking is a sin" resolution. Pretty much the position of the churches I grew up in back in the day. (A grievous sin, on a par with dancing and wearing blue jeans to Sunday services.)

Let get this right we baptists do not wear bobbed hair, make up, pants, beads, dance, smoke and God forbid the mocker.
Your right, baptists pay little attention convention resolutions. I might add none of which have much to do with salvation.

 

[Billx]

This had to come from a KJVO site, the part of them Critical Greek text used by modern versions is totally corrupted/satanic!

I remember when Dr. Fisher took me to his office and we talked about my Greek usage. He said your Greek is good but you would be the first scholar to climb out on that limb ... but you have the right to be wrong. I rest my case. Who is right Dr. Fisher or the flat earth society?

 

[Van]

No argument can be made from scripture alone to abstain from alcohol.

Why not address the argument from scripture that was made?

The orthodox Baptist view is that a fraction of the populous is predisposed to substance abuse, and within that fraction are those inclined to alcoholism. So in light of not causing a brother to stumble we avoid alcohol so as to avoid leading someone astray.

 

[Rippon]

For the NIV it helps to get William Mounce Greek-interlinear. His father was one of my professors. It will parse and define each word in language I can understand. I recommend. I did have to get the exhaustive concordance.

Dr. Robert Mounce, is about a year younger than my dad. You should get his Jesus, In His Own Words. It was published seven years ago.Following are some snips from his introduction.

"Although the style is contemporary, the desire is to clarify the meaning of the original text...."
"...the translation desires to provide a readable and accurate account, which will communicate the first-century message in contemporary language. Clarity has been a constant goal, and this involves making decisions regarding difficult verses and ambiguous language."

"All translation involves interpretation. My prayer is that at no point have I misled in any way what Jesus was doing or saying. You will be the judge of that. Over forty years of translation, including major involvement in the NIV, NIrV, NLT, and the ESV (as well as consulting on the TNIV) have provided the foundation for this work."

I will give you a sample of his work:

"The gift I leave with you is peace, the peace that I myself enjoy. It's not the kind of peace the world gives. So don't let your heart be troubled. Don't lose courage.

"Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will be back. If you really loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to my Father because he is greater than I.

"I have told you this ahead of time, so that when it happens, your faith will not fail. I can't talk with you much longer because the ruler of this world is on his way. But he has no basis for an accusation against me. I am doing exactly what the Father has told me to do. Thus everyone in the world will know that I love the Father.

"It's time to leave; let's be on our way." (John 14:27-31)

 

[CJC]

There are two documentaries that you can watch that talks about what the OP referenced.
The first is called "A Lamp In The Dark

The second is the sequel to the above call "Tares Among The Wheat"

Maybe this is where the person in the OP got his information.

Both are 3 hours long.

 

[rsr]

Not sure, RSR, what your point is? Baptists believe we should avoid alcohol based on the reason I provided. Some Baptists take it further, but those arguments cannot really be supported from scripture. You have not taken a position, other than to find fault with my view. We should try to edify, rather than grumble. If you disagree with the view I presented as the orthodox view, present your alternate view.

Sigh. I read through all the Southern Baptist resolutions on alcohol (which you cited as an example of "orthodox" belief) None cite your "orthodox" justification. Not one.

Most Southern Baptists have been Prohibitionists (in theory, though not always in fact) since the late 19th century and consider drinking alcohol sinful in itself (none of this causing a brother to stumble stuff).

That's the point. You say something is "orthodoxy" and expect everyone to believe it just because you say it.

Of course, none of this applies to pre-Prohibitionist Baptists, who believed drunkenness was sinful, but not drinking per se.

 

[Van]

Sigh, you did not take a position and ignored my view. I provided another quote to support the Baptist orthodox view (avoid alcohol) but you did not address that reality. It appears you agree we should avoid alcohol, since you have not offered a pro-alcohol view. Go figure.

Anyway, one claim was that my view was hard to find, as if I had made it up. Here is a quote from the web,

"The Bible has almost no good word about it and, in fact, usually associates tragedy and sin with the use of wine," Patterson writes. "... A believer in no way can justify drinking if thereby he is contributing to the sustenance of an industry responsible for two-thirds of the violent deaths, two-fifths of all divorces, one-third of all crime, and untold millions of dollars in damage to private property."

Cornett, describing himself as a "1 Corinthians 8 teetotaler," underscored the apostle Paul's concern to avoid causing weaker Christians to stumble in their faith.

"In other words, I should care more about the other guy than my own liberty -- a clear call to self-denial.... Paul says that the cavalier Christian who disregards his 'weaker' brother does not merely sin against his brother, but against Christ Himself since Christ died for the weaker brother too." This biblical principle "that God has given us in His Word," Cornett writes, "ought to be all we need."

 

[Jerome]

"none of this causing a brother to stumble stuff"

Huh?

White Paper "On Alcohol Use" by the SBC Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission's Richard Land and Barrett Duke:

http://v7.swbts.edu/tasks/render/file/?fileID=822B7337-FE75-FB6C-353484D92E0CC55B

p. 2 "Alcohol is...a primary contributor to a wide array of health problems and human suffering. These include various cancers, liver disease, alcoholism....Even those who are able to control their drinking should recognize that they are engaged in a behavior that is destroying millions of lives, and choose to abstain rather than encourage by their behavior someone to drink who will not be able to control his drinking."

 

[rsr]

Good for you. You found a source and quoted it. It's just not the stance the entire convention has taken repeatedly.

Van's quote from Patterson is the typical Prohibitionist stance, which is the most common view among Southern Baptists (and what you'll find in the resolutions). Cornett does indeed follow the "stumble" argument.

 

[Van]

"none of this causing a brother to stumble stuff"

Huh?

White Paper "On Alcohol Use" by the SBC Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission's Richard Land and Barrett Duke:

http://v7.swbts.edu/tasks/render/file/?fileID=822B7337-FE75-FB6C-353484D92E0CC55B

p. 2 "Alcohol is...a primary contributor to a wide array of health problems and human suffering. These include various cancers, liver disease, alcoholism....Even those who are able to control their drinking should recognize that they are engaged in a behavior that is destroying millions of lives, and choose to abstain rather than encourage by their behavior someone to drink who will not be able to control his drinking."

Thanks Jerome, I do not know why orthodox views are disparaged. They may be off base, but to claim they are non-existent is unsettling, but far be it for me to sow discontent.

 

[Jerome]

in light of not causing a brother to stumble we avoid alcohol so as to avoid leading someone astray.

I think that the majority viewpoint would be no alcohol allowed

Relevant to the views expressed here as being held to by Baptists:

"drinking alcohol sinful in itself"

and

"causing a brother to stumble"


Lifeway Research found:

lifewayresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Perceptions-of-Alcohol.pdf

A majority of Southern Baptists polled did not agree with the "alcohol consumption is sinful" idea (p. 72)

A majority of Southern Baptists polled agreed with the "could cause others to stumble" idea (p. 74)

 

[Yeshua1]

Relevant to the views expressed here as being held to by Baptists:

"drinking alcohol sinful in itself"

and

"causing a brother to stumble"


Lifeway Research found:

lifewayresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Perceptions-of-Alcohol.pdf

A majority of Southern Baptists polled did not agree with the "alcohol consumption is sinful" idea (p. 72)

A majority of Southern Baptists polled agreed with the "could cause others to stumble" idea (p. 74)

Would be a good answer, as taking it by itself is not sin, ifdone in moderation, but if I used to get drunk, or you have an issue, best to refrain!

 

[Van]

Relevant to the views expressed here as being held to by Baptists:
"drinking alcohol sinful in itself"
and
"causing a brother to stumble"

Lifeway Research found:
lifewayresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Perceptions-of-Alcohol.pdf

A majority of Southern Baptists polled did not agree with the "alcohol consumption is sinful" idea (p. 72)
A majority of Southern Baptists polled agreed with the "could cause others to stumble" idea (p. 74)

So the avoid alcohol view is orthodox, not only among Baptists, but even SBC.

Thanks again!

 

[agedman]

Would you believe that Van and I agree on this topic?

The Scriptures are clear that, just as any sinful activity, there is danger by assuming intoxicants are God's blessing upon humankind.

Some would desire to use the term "moderation," as if that gives some approval by God.
The problem with that thinking is that it never ends with moderation. Just as pornography doesn't. Just as eating doesn't. Just as any fleshly desire doesn't.

Now, there has been a great many threads and discussion on this topic.

Why is it that those who want to be servants of the Holy God expect His authority to reside in the one who is controlled by the "spirits" of this world?

Such just isn't rational thinking much less found in the Scriptures.