1 Timothy 2:1-6 Another all?

[rc]

The passage is in the NEGATIVE... The unchosen DO NOT BELIEVE because the are NOT OF HIS SHEEP... Simple...

Restate it? They can't choose him nor will they EVER choose him because THEY ARE NOT HIS SHEEP! (NOT BECAUSE THEY CHOSEN NOT TO, if Jesus believed man could of out of their own DESIRE choose He would of said "You are not my sheep because you don't believe".

With John 17? ... please .. the Apostles? ... Read from the same writer chapter 6,8,10. He's praying for those who he would DIE FOR... HIS SHEEP...not those who are NOT His sheep.


The Holy Spirit CONVICTS in context NOT CONVINCES or peruadesor whoos for salvation Padre. The Holy Spirit in regeneration GIVES A NEW HEART to those who God elects for His Glory.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 6 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

 

[padredurand]

The Holy Spirit CONVICTS in context NOT CONVINCES or peruadesor whoos for salvation Padre. The Holy Spirit in regeneration GIVES A NEW HEART to those who God elects for His Glory.

What is peruadesor whoos?

The Holy Spirit CONVICTS in context NOT CONVINCES

And you disagree with Mr. Henry, among others, as well.

As for Ezekiel 36, Israel is mentioned 14 times "in context". Who will have a new heart and spirit? Who will have their heart of stone removed and replaced with a heart of flesh? Who will have the Spirit put within them so they may walk in His statutes and exercise care to obey His rules, in context?

 

[Wes Outwest]

rc, why do you ignore the simple truths? Is God's plan not complex enough for you? Do you really feel that you are not good enough to be able to hear the truth and believe with what God gave you in your humanity?

Those that Jesus stated were not of his sheep, were not open to be persuaded by truth! Jesus standing there looking into their eyes, knew they were not open to him! He knew by their expressions and body language and their words that they were truly hardened by God to not receive "one of their own". Just as Herod was not willing that a "King" be born in his Kingdom, and that's why he had all the male children killed!

Wake up and smell the coffee!

Who does Ezekiel say will get a new heart, a new spirit? Who is the object of Ezekiel's prophesy? Here's a clue: It was not the gentiles!
Who rejected Jesus? Here's a clue: It was not the gentiles! They received the Gospel message without ever laying eyes on Jesus!

 

[Southern]

Wes,

Do you really feel that you are not good enough to be able to hear the truth and believe with what God gave you in your humanity?

Yes, I could not have believed in my own power (John 6:44). Wes the reason you will be in heaven and others are not is because you were "good enough" to respond while others were not as "good" as you were. You will be in heaven because you were "good enough". When Paul asks "Who maketh thee to differ" (1 Cor. 4:7) from all the others who are lost, you can say "Me!".

 

[rc]

Wes,
Jesus didn't say you do not believe BECAUSE I KNOW YOU WON'T BELIEVE... He said BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP!

A man's heart is wicked (What I FEEL in my humanity). CAN NOT discern spiritual truths. His affectons (desires) are always EVIL. Ezekiel is talking about Israel alright... NOT ALL are Israel that are Israel... hmmm You are again getting the NATION Irael mixed up with the elect (Jews and THE WORLD).

 

[Wes Outwest]

Southern,
You know that is not what I said!

John 6:44 = Jesus addressing Jews in the Capernaum Synagog!

John 6:41 Meanwhile the Jews were complaining to each other about him, because he had said, `I am the bread that has come down from heaven.'
John 6:42 They were saying, `Surely this is Jesus son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know. How can he now say, "I have come down from heaven?" '
John 6:43 Jesus said in reply to them, `Stop complaining to each other.
John 6:44 `No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets: They will all be taught by God; everyone who has listened to the Father, and learnt from him, comes to me.
John 6:46 Not that anybody has seen the Father, except him who has his being from God: he has seen the Father.
John 6:47 In all truth I tell you, everyone who believes has eternal life.

As for me? I am busy doing the father's work

John 6:28 Then they said to him, `What must we do if we are to carry out God's work?'
John 6:29 Jesus gave them this answer, `This is carrying out God's work: you must believe in the one he has sent.'

So I am working my way to heaven doing God's Work!

 

[DavidFWhite3]

Thank you Ray.

Dave

 

[Southern]

Wes,

Southern,
You know that is not what I said!

What part of my quote from you did you not say?

John 6:44 = Jesus addressing Jews in the Capernaum Synagog

So the ones Jesus is speaking of in verse 44 and 37 are the Jews? If the ones who are given to the Father are the Jews, then all the Jews will come to Christ! The text says All the Father gives to me "will" come to me. You believe in universal Jewish salvation?

So I am working my way to heaven doing God's Work!

Thank you for being honest and consistant with your man centered belief.

 

[padredurand]

You believe in universal Jewish salvation?

Interesting question. Why don't you and

You are again getting the NATION Irael mixed up with the elect (Jews and THE WORLD).

rc start a thread on the topic?

The many brands of dispensational theology might make for interesting discussion but has little to do with I Tim 2.

 

[Wes Outwest]

So the ones Jesus is speaking of in verse 44 and 37 are the Jews? If the ones who are given to the Father are the Jews, then all the Jews will come to Christ! The text says All the Father gives to me "will" come to me. You believe in universal Jewish salvation?

That shows that you do not have the truth! The father is the one who gives of what is his to the Son, who is also His. The Father has not given the Jews to Jesus, he has given out of the Jews those that Jesus describes in His prayer in John 17.

Who are the ones GIVEN by the Father to the Son?

John 17:6-10 I have revealed your name to those whom you took from the world to give me. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now at last they have recognised that all you have given me comes from you for I have given them the teaching you gave to me, and they have indeed accepted it and know for certain that I came from you, and have believed that it was you who sent me. It is for them that I pray. I am not praying for the world but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.
John 17:10 All I have is yours and all you have is mine, and in them I am glorified.

But further in Jesus' prayer he does pray for the world

John 17:20 I pray not only for these (the ones given by the Father (see above)) but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me.

That includes you and I Larry! Because it was through the teaching of the Apostles that both you and I came to believe in Jesus.

Yes, God's plan, laid out from before the foundation of the world, is that whosoever believeth in Jesus shall not perish but have everlasting life. How do we in this modern age come to believe in Jesus? Through the teachings of the Apostles that The Father gave to Jesus, and to whom Jesus revealed the name of the Father, and taught them all that Jesus recieved from the Father to teach. It is through their teachings that we come to faith, and it is with the illumination of God's word by Holy Spirit that the truth becomes alive in us, and we can have the ASSURANCE OF THE PROMISE, which is everlasting life through our faith in Jesus!

 

[Southern]

Wes,
I am not following you. Who are the ones given to the Son in verse 37? And why did He not give everyone to the Son, only a select number?

In Christ

 

[GeneMBridges]

That shows that you do not have the truth! The father is the one who gives of what is his to the Son, who is also His. The Father has not given the Jews to Jesus, he has given out of the Jews those that Jesus describes in His prayer in John 17.

Who are the ones GIVEN by the Father to the Son?

Wes, what Southern is asking is why not all those given believe, when according to the text you cited, the ones who are given come to Jesus because they are drawn and all of them believe without exception and are raised on the last day.

You believe exactly the opposite of that, because you repudiate efficacious (e.g. irresistible) grace. By saying those given are the Jews, then all the Jews should believe, if we follow the text itself.

You are not exegeting the text of John 6, you are pulling from other texts to prove your point, and, in so doing, only establishing the Reformed position which says that the Jews that are given are the Jews that believe, and they believe because they are given.

Jesus is not talking about the Jews as an entire nation. He is talking to this particular group of them that are following him because He fills their bellies with bread. Jesus is saying He is the bread of life, and he specifically is telling them why they do not believe.

John 6 says those who believe do so because they are given and come because they are drawn as a result of being given; it does not say, as your view would affirm, that they are given because they come and believe.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Southern:
Wes,
I am not following you. Who are the ones given to the Son in verse 37? And why did He not give everyone to the Son, only a select number?

In Christ

Those in verse 37 are Jews that believe in Jesus, and we see in scripture that after the 12, there were many who did believe in (were given to) Jesus. Jesus declares that the Jews ALL belong to the FATHER. God the FATHER Claimed the seed of Jacob, the father of the twelve tribes, as His own. Jesus is simply acknowledging that All out of the Jews who do come to him are "given to him" by the Father. But the first of those so Given are the Apostles to whom Jesus revealed the Name and teachings of the FATHER. It was they who Are God's Elect from the foundation of the world, because it is through them that the whole would would hear the Gospel message, but not through them alone, as there were others such as Opollos, who also taught what he had learned, and by whom many came to believe in Jesus, though he Opollos was not an Apostle, he was a disciple.

It would be interesting to know if each of the Apostles was from a different family line, one out of each of the twelves tribes of Israel.

As for Why the Father did not give all to Jesus, Jesus answers that in his Pray in John 17

John 17:10 All I have is yours and all you have is mine, and in them I am glorified.

Today, the majority of Jews still does not recognize who or what Jesus is, but they do have faith in God, Jehoveh, YHWY, etc., so they still belong to the FATHER. Other races that believe in ONE LIVING GOD, also belong to the FATHER, and are not given to Jesus. I believe that America belongs to Jesus, for the most part, because America still claims to be a Christian nation. But we are being overrun by ISLAM, woe to us for allowing it to happen.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Christ came to save the lost;
Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Everyone is lost until they are found.

Mike

 

[Southern]

Mike and Wes

Mike,
The "giving" to the Son is not salvation, but unto salvation. These are the ones that "will" come as a result of their election (Acts 13:48;Rom. 8:29;2 Thess. 2:13;John 10:13,26). So saying that everyone is lost is meaningless to this text.

Wes,
How can this be "believing Jews" when the giving precedes their coming in faith?

In Christ

 

[Wes Outwest]

Southern,
Jesus' prayer in John 17 is at the end of Jesus' physical presence "in the world". In that period of time, the Apostles were GIVEN by the FATHER to Jesus. And, during the 'university of Jesus', there were many Jews who aligned WITH Jesus, thus they too were Given to Jesus by the Father out of ALL that belong to the Father, which includes all twelve of Israel's tribes.

There are two times in Jesus' prayer when he says that he is praying for someone and they are two different someones. The first time, he describes those that the Father gave him from out of the world, as those to whom he has revealed the father's name, and who recognized that what Jesus had he was Given from the Father, and that they had received the teaching that the father gave Jesus to Give. Now, just from that brief description one can easily see that Jesus is speaking of the twelve apostles, one of whom was lost to fulfill prophesy. Then he says he is praying for them.

Later, He says that he is not praying for them alone, but for those who through their teachings will come to believe in Jesus. That obviously includes you and I, because it was throught the teachings of the Apostles that we come to believe in Jesus.

So, for over three years, Jesus had his Elect the Apostles, and those Jews that believed what Jesus was teaching and arrived at faith in Jesus. Remember, there were crowds and individuals that followed Jesus throughout Jesus' ministry, many of them remained believers, because it is said of Jesus that after his resurrection he was seen by more than the remaining eleven Apostles, there were the women believers too, who witnessed him alive. So yes there were others that the Father gave to Jesus, and not one of them was given before they believed, but rather because of their belief.

 

[GeneMBridges]

But, Wes, the text says they were given PRIOR TO their belief, not because of their belief.

Nothing in John 6 says anything about being given because of belief.

 

[Southern]

Gene,
Thanks, but I have already tried.

In Christ

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Southern;

Mike,
The "giving" to the Son is not salvation, but unto salvation. These are the ones that "will" come as a result of their election (Acts 13:48;Rom. 8:29;2 Thess. 2:13;John 10:13,26). So saying that everyone is lost is meaningless to this text.

According to Calvinist this is there truth. But I disagree. The whole of Jn. 6 IMHO was addressed to the Jews. God deals differently with them. Because they rejected Him. Larry says they weren't elected to Salvation but this isn't so either.The Jews are God's chosen people, elect for Salvation in every way.

The whole of Calvinism professes that all men can't come, but Christ said that He will draw all men to Him. So according to Calvinist God waste a lot of time and energy to draw men He isn't going to save any way.

One reason I object to Calvinism is if it is true then God must be rather ignorant and ineffecient. Calvinist say that man in his natural state doesn't understand the things of the spirit but Rom. 1:20 says differently. It amazes me how much contradiction there is in Calvinism and the weardest thing is Calvinist don't see it.

The complete doctrine of Calvinism is in contradiction with God's word. I guess you can say well old Mike is just natural because he doesn't understand how anyone would believe your truth. but you see that's just it. It is not my truth and never will be. Not that I reject Christ because I do not reject Him but I love Him and I believe in Him. I myself am the proof that Calvinism isn't true. I call on Him by name and He gives me eternal life. and no matter how much Calvinist want to complicate this important truth. We still can simply believe and that's all there is to it.
May God Shine His Light on all of us.
Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

Dr. A.A. Hodge, D.D. makes these statements in his book written in 1883, called “Outlines of Theology” p. 97.

AUGUSTINIANISM

By Adam’s transgression the freedom of the human will has been entirely lost. In his present corrupt state man can will and do only evil.

It is an inward, secret, and wonderful operation of God upon man. It is a preceding as well as an accompanying work. By preceding grace, man attains faith, by which he comes to an insight of good, and by which power is given him to will the good . . . . As man can do nothing without grace, so he can do nothing against it. It is irresistible. And as man by nature has no merit at all, no respect at all can be had to man’s moral disposition, in imparting grace, but God acts according to his own free will.

From eternity, God made a free and unconditional decree to save a few* from the mass that was corrupted and subjected to damnation. To those whom he predestinated to this salvation, he gives the requisite means for the purpose. But on the rest, who do not belong to this small* number of the elect, the merited ruin falls. Christ came into the world and died for the elect only. [end quote]

These three paragraphs sound like they are taken out of John Calvin’s “Institutes of the Christian Religion.” Can anyone ever again doubt, Calvin’s linkage to the man living about eleven centuries before Calvin’s era of human life?

From paragraph #1 we get the teaching that God treats all human beings as puppets because men and women have lost their freedom to will anything. Also, we get Total Depravity out of this teaching from Augustine.

From paragraph #2 Augustine and Calvin have taught their followers that God’s work in the sinner is autocratically done by the Lord in a ‘secret’ way, thus, we have Unconditional Election. He taught that there is a grace that precedes the gift of eternal life, and it comes from the Lord ministering faith even before a man or woman believes and trusts in Jesus for everlasting life. This person has no way to reject God’s operation of the Spirit, thus Irresistible Grace. Also, God does not look on any sinner as to their moral condition, He just selects who He desires at will.

In paragraph #3 the author seems elated by saying that only the ‘few’ with the inclusion of the asterisk will ultimately be saved, while the masses will be subjected to everlasting damnation, all under the eye and Divine will of Almighty God. The author says, that Augustinian Calvinism teaches that sinners receive this disposition of soul, because of ‘their merited ruin fall’ comes down on their eternal souls. In other words, even though they had no human ability to believe because He decreed it before the creation of the earth, the non-elect still are made 100% responsible for their own sins which make them unwilling candidates for damnation in the presence of the Devil forever.

Also, in paragraph #3 all three men, Dr. Hodge, Augustine and Calvin agree that Jesus only died for His elected souls, in contradistinction to God’s truth as found in John 1:3; 3:16; Acts 2:21; Romans 5:1; Galatians 2:6; Ephesians 2:8a; I Timothy 2:4 {wishes}; Hebrews 2:9; II Peter 3:9; Revelation 3:20 and Revelation 22:17.

Does anyone recognize any Augustinianism in present day Calvinism?