1 Timothy 2:1-6 Another all?

There are as many views and hues of understanding of Irresistible Grace as stars in our heavenly galaxy.

Pastor John Piper says, In Acts 7:51 Stephen says to the Jewish leaders, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit as your fathers did." And Paul speaks of grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19). God gives many entreaties and promptings which are resisted. In fact the whole history of Israel in the Old Testament is one protracted story of resistance, as the parable of the wicked tenants shows (Matthew 21:33-43; cf. Romans 10:21). [/quote]
Here Piper sounds like an Arminian with our term, Resistible Grace.

Here Piper sounds like a Calvinist. Which does he really want to believe. In the immediate above Scriptures the writers mean that God is sovereign in matters of nations and the ruling of His world. God nowhere here even hints about saving some and damning other poor souls.

Yes, God used Pharaoh and Esau the way He desired because they had hardened their own hearts toward God’s best for their lives. But, no where does the Apostle Paul speak of ‘cherry picking’ certain men and women for Hell while giving a free pass to the relative few so they can rise to His realm above. He is not a Divine Despot.

 

Ray,
Watch yourself as you quote Piper. I'm a church member and leader in his church and what you said is absolutely not true and you are misrepresenting what he says. If you don't quote ALL that he says you shouldn't quote him at all. He requires that if you quote him, to forward the page from which you are referring to get him in context or not to use it.

 

For one to accept the premises Piper sets forth, one would have do deny that Grace is an "attribute of God" and not the whole essence of God. Grace in itself has no power to persuade, to transform, to save, etc. But Grace is an extension of who and what God is through His behavior toward man! Grace in itself contains no power, except that it sets the tone for all of God's other actions toward man. It provides the "environment" in which God extends and demonstrates his Love to us. It is an act of grace on God's part to be merciful to man. It is God's Grace that provides man the opportunity to "hear and believe" for while God is behaving in accordance with his grace, he is withholding his justice, and His wrath.

In the individual man, justice and grace cannot exist at the same time, one must be absent for the other to be effective. If God is meeting out his justice, His grace would dilute it. Therefore, while grace is manifested, justice is not carried out. There is nothing "irresistible" about grace.

 

Talk about missing the point. Let me try it again. This article is representative of Calvinist thought. If some of it sounds Arminian then so be it. Instead of reading it to find out what Calvinists really think, you hold it up against what you think Calvinists think and try to interpret it that way. I don't know you, and I don't know Piper, but I have to believe that he knows more about Calvinism than you do. Like I said to someone else, do with it what you will, but if you continue to assert that Calvinists believe that all of God's grace is irresistible then I will have to believe that you are intentionally being dishonest.

Much of God's grace is resistible. God's saving grace, that grace by which He regenerates and gives faith, is not resistible.

Another strawman.

Another strawman.

Another strawman.

Oh, come on. You know that's not what he means.

Lame? Do insults help your case?

 

[My previous quote] ' . . . John 1:9 & James 3:9] even before the rebirth made possible through the Holy Spirit. We are not so wicked that we cannot understand the Gospel truth when preached or by a Christian witness. The Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners of their need of Christ before they even repent and trust in the Lord. [/quote]

While beating the horse to death you must also include for your understanding the two above Scriptures. This must be blended with the idea of Total Depravity.

I said previously, Pastor needs study; and is a lame example of a person who can explain the Lord’s truth in the Word of God.

I am rather sure that the pastor knows, like the back of his hand, the Calvinistic view of theology. Notice, again what I said in the above paragraph.

Hopefully we should care less about promoting Arminianism or Calvinism. We should strive to rightly divide the Word of truth.

Do you agree?

 

Apparently you equate "in the image of God" with "able to understand the gospel". I don't think so.

Now you sound like a Calvinist. Why would the Spirit try to coerce a sinner to do something that the sinner wouldn't freely do on his own?

I noticed. I'm still chuckling.

Absolutely. While doing so we also ought not deliberately misrepresent the beliefs of those with whom we strive, especially when we have been corrected multiple times.

Do you agree?

 

First of all Ray you still haven't apologized for your misrepresentation of my Pastor. Second Piper used to be a staunch Arminian and has probably studied more in one year than you have your whole life, (He is the teaching Pastor, which means the ONLY thing he does, besides some manditory meetings, ALL HE DOES IS STUDY 10 - 12 hours a day to get ready for Sunday...) As for Arminianism and his understanding of it Read "The Justification of God" by Piper to get him in context.. not by a out of context "snipet" by someone who doesn't know him.

Wes,
If Ray just "chose" while others didn't ... why? Was he more humble?.. smarter? More pious? ...Your SIMPLE answer doesn't cut it. Think alittle deeper...

 

Whatever....

Amen to you!

 

Is that what you think you are doing Ray, promoting Arminianism?

Instead of multiplying error.

Rom 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; Rom 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Divide that for us Ray please.
Then join it to the question, "Why is Jesus the Saviour?"
Could it have something to do with saving?

Wes.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

JN 6:43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
That is no one Wes unless the Father draws them. Those are the ones that Jesus will lose none of.
If the Father draws 'all' then the only conclusion we can reach is that Jesus failed.
John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Did Jesus fail?
A seasonal greeting to you, "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Matt 1:21.

Did He? Which way is it? The scriptures declare that He will save His people. Are you in error or is the scripture?

That question is not worth answering to be honest.

johnp.

 

Bro. James:

Please re-read Revelation chapter 3. It refers to having names removed from the Book of Life. So I guess Jesus can die for some who were in the Book, but now they are not, for it clearly says their names can be removed.

To think that God intentionally wills for anyone to not be saved is the most anti-Christian doctrine ever conceived. The New Testament is clear. He wills (desires) for all to be saved. All are not saved. The purpose of evangelism is not to "discover the elect." It is to give ALL the opportunity to know what God's desire for them is, what He has done to make it possible, and what He will do if they believe.

Don't you Calvinists understand how cruel you sound? "God has elected me but not you!" That is what you are saying, when you should only be saying God loves us all and in Christ ANYONE can be saved, and whosoever believes will be saved.

Dave

 

Padre,

Saying that "One chose God" And Calvinist's are arrogant does not ANSWER THE QUESTION !

ANSWER THE QUESTION !

 

RC said,

Why does one need to think a little deeper when the truth is on the surface. As a fisherman, I never drop my line to the bottom of the sea if I am trying to catch those fish near the surface! The Gospel was made simple to confound the wise. The acceptance of the Gospel is likewise simple, and that just beats the devil out of the wise who cannot understand it!

 

Another philosophy... still haven't answered it...

 

Johnp said,

(johnp) Did Jesus fail?
A seasonal greeting to you, "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Matt 1:21.</font>[/QUOTE]He came unto his own (his people) and his people received him not! But to as many as did receive him, gave he the power to become the sons of God!

So did he fail? Are you saved?

Suggest you read John 17:1-26 to find out who the father gave to the son! You'll also see in that passage that we are not "the elect", we are "the world" from which those who accept the teaching of "the Elect of God" and come to believe in Jesus are saved through faith!

 

Instead of pounding us with you 1 oz hammer, rc, why don't you answer the question?

 

David F. White 3,

You offered these words.

I am reading, for the most part a good theological book, written by A.A. Hodge, D.D. Some churches or denomination give these honorary degrees if the man or woman was a successful pastor, evangelist or a writer to honor their ministry, but they might have never entered a seminary door.

His book, “Outlines of Theology” written in 1883. On page 16 he tells the readers this. ‘The point of view adopted in this book is the evangelical and specifically the Calvinistic or Augustinian one, assuming the following fundamental principles. {notice there are still a few stragglers who deny that Calvin's Instititues came from the mind and heart of the R.C. theologian Augustine}

On page 149 he starts the Attributes of God with ‘The Infinite Power of God; the Will of God, Justice, Goodness, Truth, Sovereignty, and Holiness of God.’ It is most interesting to me that he left out totally the attribute of the Love of God. Is anyone surprised? I thought I missed something and have checked this important section of his writing several times.

Now lest some of the brethren get their feelings hurt, let me say that even Calvinists have some idea of the love of God, albeit, that love is ministered by Christ to only those special human sinners via His alleged Effectual Call. In my view their General Call can never be fathomed as being a sincere call to all lost sinners.

A prominent Five Point Calvinist, Mr. Harold Camping never entered a seminary and adding to his credentials has written several published books. He set the time of the Second Coming I think back before the turn of the century and now teaches that Christians should leave their churches and listen to his teaching or other radio instructors of the Word, though he never designates anyone but himself. The other evening I heard him defined another date for the Second Coming, something like 2009. Get your white robes on and head for California.

I think the best scenario is to go to a Bible College or seminary where they teach both views and then the scholar can elect which view he or she thinks is most Biblical. Usually, denominations are trumpeting their own doctrinal presuppositions and traditions.

Dave, your post shows your sincere desire to be objective; your first sentence I am sure has the sanctifying blessing coming from the Lord Himself.

Brother Ray

 

Wes,
Again switching Israel for the elect and the elect for Israel.... "His people that did not receive Him" is talking about the decendents of Jacob. Those who He will save from their sins is talking about the elect... John 17? Maybe you should check it out in CONTEXT...

John 17:9 I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me

John 10:26 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

 

And who did God give to Jesus?

These are the elect that Jesus was praying for in John17:9. Jesus' prayer continues and in John 17:20 He says, "I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me." In other words those who are saved out of "the world". And that sir is US! All who have come to believe in Jesus through the teaching of the Elect Apostles.

Who is Jesus' Flock? It is ALL who believe in Jesus. [/QUOTE]