npetreley, could you expound on that thought a bit? What are the differences between "distinction" and "exception"? How would an understanding of the differences be useful?
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1 Timothy 2:1-6 Another all?
- Thread starter padredurand
- Start date
It's all in the timing.
But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written,“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me,And every tongue shall give praise to God.”So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. Romans 14:10-12
Padre,
I called a bookstore and asked the owner if he had a book by a particular author. The store owner said that he not only had that book but "all" of that authors books.
He was not saying that he had "all" without exception because that would be a lie. I have some of that authors books! What he meant was that he had "all" without distinction. There was not one title of his book that he did not have. He had every kind.
The Bible is full of these examples. Here are three just to show you the difference between all without exception and all without distinction:
Mark 1:5
Question: Did "all" without exception go to John to be baptized? Or did "all" people without distinction as to kind or social class go?
John 8:2
Question: Did "all" without exception go to the temple? The temple was not big enough to accomadate all without exception but it was big enough! Or could he be speaking of "all" in a generic way (all without distinction).
Acts 22:15
Question: Was Paul to be a witness to "all" without exception? I sure hope not because I have never met Paul. Paul was to be a witness to Gentiles as well as Jews. "All without distinction" as to 'kind'.
Conclusion: This is what Paul means when he says "all" men in I Timothy 2:4. He sets the context by clearly taking the word all to mean "all without distinction" as to 'kind' in verses 2 and 7. He is speaking about "classes" of men who would have been likely to be left out of the Ephesians prayer... Gentile Rulers. To take this as all without exception would result in absurdity. Timothy would then have to pray for "all" without exception. I hope they had phone books in Ephesus, that would take a while!
In Christ
Here is an example:
I called a bookstore and asked the owner if he had a book by a particular author. The store owner said that he not only had that book but "all" of that authors books.
He was not saying that he had "all" without exception because that would be a lie. I have some of that authors books! What he meant was that he had "all" without distinction. There was not one title of his book that he did not have. He had every kind.
The Bible is full of these examples. Here are three just to show you the difference between all without exception and all without distinction:
Mark 1:5
Question: Did "all" without exception go to John to be baptized? Or did "all" people without distinction as to kind or social class go?
John 8:2
Question: Did "all" without exception go to the temple? The temple was not big enough to accomadate all without exception but it was big enough! Or could he be speaking of "all" in a generic way (all without distinction).
Acts 22:15
Question: Was Paul to be a witness to "all" without exception? I sure hope not because I have never met Paul. Paul was to be a witness to Gentiles as well as Jews. "All without distinction" as to 'kind'.
Conclusion: This is what Paul means when he says "all" men in I Timothy 2:4. He sets the context by clearly taking the word all to mean "all without distinction" as to 'kind' in verses 2 and 7. He is speaking about "classes" of men who would have been likely to be left out of the Ephesians prayer... Gentile Rulers. To take this as all without exception would result in absurdity. Timothy would then have to pray for "all" without exception. I hope they had phone books in Ephesus, that would take a while!
In Christ
Ray Berrian
New Member
I think on page 4 padredurand raised the question about Jacob and Esau. Here is my response.
'God loved Jacob and hated Esau. This is a fact. [Romans 9:13] Jacob and his lineage brought forth the Son of Promise, even our Lord. Esau was exiled to Edom and did not have nearly the spiritual blessings that Jacob experienced. There are no tribes named after any of Esau’s descendents. Jacob’s ancestry produced King David and the King of kings and the Lord of lords. It is true that God loved Jacob and loved less the man named Esau. This passage has nothing to do with personal autocratic election to Heaven and Hell by Jesus' decrees.
Berrian, Th.D.
'God loved Jacob and hated Esau. This is a fact. [Romans 9:13] Jacob and his lineage brought forth the Son of Promise, even our Lord. Esau was exiled to Edom and did not have nearly the spiritual blessings that Jacob experienced. There are no tribes named after any of Esau’s descendents. Jacob’s ancestry produced King David and the King of kings and the Lord of lords. It is true that God loved Jacob and loved less the man named Esau. This passage has nothing to do with personal autocratic election to Heaven and Hell by Jesus' decrees.
Berrian, Th.D.
Southern - Done with finals? Can we draw two thoughts together?
Is this without distinction or without exception?
Could we the apply a rule such as "all with the exception of those specifically excluded"?
Hey Berrian, ThD. Where you been? Get a chance to read the Spurgeon link?
page 4 if you're looking.
Is this without distinction or without exception?
Could we the apply a rule such as "all with the exception of those specifically excluded"?
Hey Berrian, ThD. Where you been? Get a chance to read the Spurgeon link?
Padre,
Yes, thank the Lord! I finished yesterday. Ever had a load taken off your shoulders? I am floating right now.
But probably will be hitting and missing on the board until after the first.
As to your question, that depends on the context. I have no horse in that race. The point of my last post was to show the difference in all without exception and all without distinction. And this is clearly what Paul is referring to in chapter 2 (verse 2 and 7). He is clearly speaking about "kinds" of men therefore using "all" in the generic sense.
Yes, thank the Lord! I finished yesterday. Ever had a load taken off your shoulders? I am floating right now.
As to your question, that depends on the context. I have no horse in that race. The point of my last post was to show the difference in all without exception and all without distinction. And this is clearly what Paul is referring to in chapter 2 (verse 2 and 7). He is clearly speaking about "kinds" of men therefore using "all" in the generic sense.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi RC;
May God Give You Light;
Mike
Too bad the Ancient Greeks didn't have those dictionaries. That way the Original Greek would be just as poluted as the rest of the worlds Languages. With out the purity of the Original Greek Language none of us would have any truth Huh!
May God Give You Light;
Mike
Got it pad old chum! Get yerself a glass of red eye and sit down.
Who says that a person who serves at the altar is saved? Not only that but the Lord promises to make their lives right miserable to boot!
Right between the eyes.
The children suffering the sins of the father!
The Lord declares that dead men 'will' serve Him at His altar. But only to crush them.
He does as He pleases.
Ciaphas said that it would be a jolly good idea for one man to die for the nation rather than the nation perish. The end of the line?
1 Samuel 3:14 “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”
That stands.
Problem resolved?
KJV.
1 Sam 2:33 And the man of thine, whom I shall not cut off from mine altar, shall be to consume thine eyes, and to grieve thine heart: and all the increase of thine house shall die in the flower of their age.
NIV.
1 Sam 2:33 Every one of you that I do not cut off from my altar will be spared only to blind your eyes with tears and to grieve your heart, and all your descendants will die in the prime of life.
Some more. The NIV reads different to the other two. The NIV reads better because I think it does.
'Every one of you...your eyes will not see for tears.'
He is giving Eli's house knowledge of their doom in advance. Dead men walking. They knew that! They could do nothing about it. In the same way He has told me that the life I have will only ever get better. And I can do nothing about that.
That does for the argument that Jesus died and atoned for all sin. It leaves a whacking great hole in someones edifice!
Surrender terms are available. They are surrender. Unconditional surrender I think!
johnp.
Who says that a person who serves at the altar is saved? Not only that but the Lord promises to make their lives right miserable to boot!
Right between the eyes.
The children suffering the sins of the father!
The Lord declares that dead men 'will' serve Him at His altar. But only to crush them.
He does as He pleases.
Ciaphas said that it would be a jolly good idea for one man to die for the nation rather than the nation perish. The end of the line?
1 Samuel 3:14 “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”
That stands.
Problem resolved?
What is that translation?
KJV.
1 Sam 2:33 And the man of thine, whom I shall not cut off from mine altar, shall be to consume thine eyes, and to grieve thine heart: and all the increase of thine house shall die in the flower of their age.
NIV.
1 Sam 2:33 Every one of you that I do not cut off from my altar will be spared only to blind your eyes with tears and to grieve your heart, and all your descendants will die in the prime of life.
Some more. The NIV reads different to the other two. The NIV reads better because I think it does.
'Every one of you...your eyes will not see for tears.'He is giving Eli's house knowledge of their doom in advance. Dead men walking. They knew that! They could do nothing about it. In the same way He has told me that the life I have will only ever get better. And I can do nothing about that.
That does for the argument that Jesus died and atoned for all sin. It leaves a whacking great hole in someones edifice!
Surrender terms are available. They are surrender. Unconditional surrender I think!
johnp.
All to Jesus I surrender All to Him I freely give;
I will ever love and trust Him, In his presence daily live.
I surrender all, I surrender all; All to thee, my blessed Savior, I surrender all.
All to Jesus I surrender, Humbly at His feet I bow,
Worldly pleasures all forsaken, Take me Jesus, take me now.
I surrender all, I surrender all; All to thee, my blessed Savior, I surrender all.
Words by Judson W. Van DeVenter, 1896
Music by Winfield S. Weeden, 1896
I can't surrender to you, dear brother johnp. It would undo 230 years of history.
GeneMBridges
New Member
Too bad the Ancient Greeks didn't have those dictionaries. That way the Original Greek would be just as poluted as the rest of the worlds Languages. With out the purity of the Original Greek Language none of us would have any truth Huh!
May God Give You Light;
Mike
Nobody is seriously arguing that all does not mean all, however, we are simply saying that there are different meanings to "all" like "all without exception" and "all without distinction," and "world of all kinds of persons without distinction" and "world of all persons without exception," and that literary context and raw lexical definition combined arbitrate our choice, and not our own opinions of what it "should mean" or how we feel it would be "better rendered."
Mike,
If you think all should be "all inclusive" in 1 Tim. 2:4, why don't you address my last post and provide some evidence of why we should take it in your sense (all without exception) rather than letting the context define the "All" as all without distinction as to "kind"(verses 2,7).
In Christ
If you think all should be "all inclusive" in 1 Tim. 2:4, why don't you address my last post and provide some evidence of why we should take it in your sense (all without exception) rather than letting the context define the "All" as all without distinction as to "kind"(verses 2,7).
In Christ
G1670 e`lku,w helkuo {hel-koo'-o} or e[lkw helko {hel'-ko}
¤ probably akin to 138; TDNT - 2:503,227; v
¤ AV - draw 8; 8
¤ 1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
Actually, helkuo in John 6 means to DRAG ...Like to "Draw" water from a well. The taking of water up going against it's nature to obey the laws of gravity to stay down in the well and being DRAGED up...
¤ probably akin to 138; TDNT - 2:503,227; v
¤ AV - draw 8; 8
¤ 1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
Actually, helkuo in John 6 means to DRAG ...Like to "Draw" water from a well. The taking of water up going against it's nature to obey the laws of gravity to stay down in the well and being DRAGED up...
Ray Berrian
New Member
rc,
God does not force people to drink at His well of life. In verse 52 the Jews even persecuted and in some cases killed the prophets
who brought the living water to their lives. This is light years away from sinners yielding to His alleged Effectual Call. The same call of the Holy Spirit goes to all sinners; their is no A list and a B list. The same general call, though unique, to each sinner, reaches all who hear His message of faith and life.
The Lord does not override the human agent as to his or her will and desires. Jesus knocks at the hearts door; He does not ramrod His way into the human heart. [Revelation 3:20] This passage is speaking of the Lord trying to re-enter the lives of His people, but the same attitude of Jesus is noticed toward all lost souls. Christ knocks but some do not open their heart's door.
Too bad this is not true because more people would end up in Heaven and Hell would not have to enlarge itself. [Isaiah 5:14 & Revelation 20:14-15]
In Acts 7:51 reminds us that human beings can force God to drop the bucket of everlasting water. The Israelite fathers under the O.T. and these Israelites in this setting also refused the 'water' of the Holy Spirit, if you will.
God does not force people to drink at His well of life. In verse 52 the Jews even persecuted and in some cases killed the prophets
The Lord does not override the human agent as to his or her will and desires. Jesus knocks at the hearts door; He does not ramrod His way into the human heart. [Revelation 3:20] This passage is speaking of the Lord trying to re-enter the lives of His people, but the same attitude of Jesus is noticed toward all lost souls. Christ knocks but some do not open their heart's door.
Too bad this is not true because more people would end up in Heaven and Hell would not have to enlarge itself. [Isaiah 5:14 & Revelation 20:14-15]
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Southern;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This verse above says all men It doesn't say all men except those over there or just some over here. It doesn't say all Jewish men or all Geltile men. It plainly says all men There is no way you can read this verse and assume that it talking about just some men because it plainly doesn't say that at all.
Joh 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
You know as well as I do that this is speaking about the people in the temple which is the context. The mistake is your's in assuming that it said;""all" without exception go to the temple"
How ever you would like to change the context of the verse 1 tim 2:4 and the context there is men which means all men.
This still doesn't change the meaning of the word "all" it is still all inclusive of what ever the word is being used to describe the "all".
What do you hope this will prove?
May God Bless You;
Mike
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This verse above says all men It doesn't say all men except those over there or just some over here. It doesn't say all Jewish men or all Geltile men. It plainly says all men There is no way you can read this verse and assume that it talking about just some men because it plainly doesn't say that at all.
What is here that makes you think it was possible that they all weren't baptised by John?
It doesn't say all went to the temple. it says;
Joh 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
You know as well as I do that this is speaking about the people in the temple which is the context. The mistake is your's in assuming that it said;""all" without exception go to the temple"
How ever you would like to change the context of the verse 1 tim 2:4 and the context there is men which means all men.
This still doesn't change the meaning of the word "all" it is still all inclusive of what ever the word is being used to describe the "all".
What do you hope this will prove?
May God Bless You;
Mike
Ray,
Why do you just like Erasmus constantly infer the indicative for the imperative? These people where uncircumcised in heart and ears.. just like ALL of those who God passes over to not DRAW in the first place! He's showing them their God hateing hearts. He isn't DRAWING them and they are resisting Him! They are just doing what is natural to them... RESISTING ... don't you see? ... That is why God in the first place HAS to DRAG them... else we would all act like these stiff necked people and would never come to God.. because "N
NE SEEKS AFTER GOD" ... NNE Ray.... Or can you tell me how you FOUND Jesus while others didn't? Where you more intelligent? More pious? More spiritual? More humble?...
Why do you just like Erasmus constantly infer the indicative for the imperative? These people where uncircumcised in heart and ears.. just like ALL of those who God passes over to not DRAW in the first place! He's showing them their God hateing hearts. He isn't DRAWING them and they are resisting Him! They are just doing what is natural to them... RESISTING ... don't you see? ... That is why God in the first place HAS to DRAG them... else we would all act like these stiff necked people and would never come to God.. because "N
NE SEEKS AFTER GOD" ... NNE Ray.... Or can you tell me how you FOUND Jesus while others didn't? Where you more intelligent? More pious? More spiritual? More humble?...Hello rc.
The unsaved are at emnity with Him, rebellion.
He is talking directly at the ones who do not believe they are saved by grace!
All outside TULIP are in dispute with the Gardener. They speak back to Him by saying it is not a TULIP when He says it is.
They say that He has not the right to pick whoever He wants to to fall in love with. That He is obliged to any that may come calling. What a nerve to say we make the running! That is to miss out on the love of God. It's His love returned that is the only game in town. A Sovereign God takes some beating.
johnp.
We are the stiff-necked people, it's not the unsaved that are stiff-necked but the children of God.
The unsaved are at emnity with Him, rebellion.
He is talking directly at the ones who do not believe they are saved by grace!
All outside TULIP are in dispute with the Gardener. They speak back to Him by saying it is not a TULIP when He says it is.
They say that He has not the right to pick whoever He wants to to fall in love with. That He is obliged to any that may come calling. What a nerve to say we make the running! That is to miss out on the love of God. It's His love returned that is the only game in town. A Sovereign God takes some beating.
johnp.
Wes Outwest
New Member
RC, The text that Ray Berrian cited, is Steven's lecture to the Sanhedren on the history of the Jews stubbornness toward God...A David vs Goliath situation. A JEW confronting Jews! This situation remains today the stumbling block of the Jews, God's ELECT! However, there is coming a time when all of the Jews will See their Messiah riding his Great White horse destroying the enemies of God! And All the jews will "come to HIM".
For the rest of us Gentiles, who hear God's word and Believe, it is, Whosoever Believeth in HIM shall not perish, but have everlasting life We hear the Word and Believe into everlasting life! We are "drawn by" the Gospel message contained in God's word. We take the word of God into our spirit through "hearing" and the Holy Spirit brings it to life in US, regenerates our spirit to conform to the spirit of the Christ and that is being "Born Again". To say that "NNE SEEKS AFTER GOD" as you have, is a misnomer, because when we are beset by our situation, even the athiest cries out for God to save him. There are no athiests in foxholes, everyone hopes for salvation! When we are faced by our mortality we seek a higher power, though we may not know him by name. When in pain and misery, nearly everyone calls out "oh God, help me". Granted, the instant relief comes, the person may well revert to their own state of rebellion. But God gave them a chance to know HIM.
For the rest of us Gentiles, who hear God's word and Believe, it is, Whosoever Believeth in HIM shall not perish, but have everlasting life We hear the Word and Believe into everlasting life! We are "drawn by" the Gospel message contained in God's word. We take the word of God into our spirit through "hearing" and the Holy Spirit brings it to life in US, regenerates our spirit to conform to the spirit of the Christ and that is being "Born Again". To say that "N
NE SEEKS AFTER GOD" as you have, is a misnomer, because when we are beset by our situation, even the athiest cries out for God to save him. There are no athiests in foxholes, everyone hopes for salvation! When we are faced by our mortality we seek a higher power, though we may not know him by name. When in pain and misery, nearly everyone calls out "oh God, help me". Granted, the instant relief comes, the person may well revert to their own state of rebellion. But God gave them a chance to know HIM.